Tag Archives: Pro-life

Bible, False teachers

Opposites

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One of my irritations with the “Christian” Left and their theology is that it pretends to be slightly different from orthodox Christianity while it is usually 180 degrees off when it comes to the essentials of the faith and any current hot topics.  Please note that by “Leftist theology,” I don’t mean the theology of political liberals.  I am referring to people who call themselves Christians but deny the essentials of the historic faith (i.e., the kinds of things countless martyrs died for — Jesus’ divinity and exclusivity, the authority of scripture, etc.) and are indistinguishable from the world on sexual ethics.  If you want to debate the disputable matters, go right ahead.  I’m flexible on those.  But words mean things, and far too many people use the term Christian in error.

For example, claiming that Jesus is one of many paths to God isn’t a little different than saying He is the only way; it is the opposite.  There is either one way, or there is not one way.  The Bible has over 100 passages teaching directly or indirectly that Jesus is the only way to salvation.  If you don’t agree that it is your prerogative, but please don’t claim to be a Christian.

Claiming that Jesus isn’t God isn’t a little different than saying He is God; it is the opposite.  He is either God or He is not God.

Claiming that the original writings of the Bible were not inspired by God isn’t just a little different than saying they were inspired by God; it is the opposite.  The Bible is God’s Word, or it is not God’s Word.  It includes roughly 3,000 claims to speak for God, so if liberal theologians think those are all false, then why do they bother with the Book at all?  Their claim is that the authors of the Bible were blasphemous pathological liars because they falsely claimed to speak for God countless times. Here’s an example:

evans

Claiming that miracles never happen (Virgin birth, loaves & fishes, healings, the physical resurrection, etc.) isn’t just a little different than saying they did happen; it is the opposite.  The first chapter of the first book of the New Testament clearly teaches the virgin birth.  If you refuse to believe that, then put the book down and stop calling yourself a Christian.

Claiming that marriage can be for two men or two women isn’t a little different than saying it is between a man and a woman; it is the opposite.  It is claiming that marriage is not just between a man and a woman and that “marriage” is now whatever we want to define it to be.  The Bible couldn’t be more clear about God’s ideal for marriage and sexuality.

Claiming that Jesus approves of killing children up their first breath isn’t a little different than saying, “Don’t murder,” it is the opposite.

The “Christian” Left claims the opposite of what historic, orthodox, biblical Christianity does regarding the essentials of the faith.   They are entitled to their opinions, of course, but it is disingenuous and misleading for them to call themselves Christians while espousing those beliefs.

They have invented their own religion, which is their right. It would just be less confusing if they gave it a new name. It would also be more intellectually honest to stop taking money from people who believe in the essentials that those denominations were founded upon.

They appear to worship a fictional Gandhi-Christ.  The most accurate description would be that of a Hindu sect (nothing personal, Hindus!).

Run, don’t walk, from the wolves of the “Christian” Left.  They are the opposite of Christianity.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Politics, Pro-life, Favorites

(Somewhat) Effective Biblical arguments against capital punishment

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gavel.jpgAs noted in my post on Ineffective Biblical arguments against capital punishment, capital punishment (CP) is a completely Biblical proposition if properly applied.  Most of the arguments against it use very poor Biblical analysis.  Having said that, I have some concerns about how it is currently administered in the U.S. If I had to argue against it, here is what I would focus on.

  • Just because the Bible permits capital punishment doesn’t mean we have to use it.
  • Some people on death row have been found not guilty.
  • The Bible requires that accused criminals be justly convicted, and our system doesn’t take perjury very seriously.

Just because the Bible permits capital punishment doesn’t mean we have to use it. This argument isn’t perfect, but it is serviceable and could be used fairly well in a debate.  The reasoning would be that if capital punishment were put to a vote, a Christian could, in good conscience, vote against the death penalty.  This doesn’t argue against CP, but it says you wouldn’t have to argue for it.

Some people on death row have been found not guilty – I think these numbers are overstated because the convictions that have been overturned were based on technicalities and not on the innocence of the accused.  And they also point to the fact that the system works, at least sometimes: The convictions were overturned before the death penalty was carried out.  Had they been sentenced to life in prison they would probably still be in jail.

But the issues with the Houston DNA lab, for example, point to system problems.

The Bible requires that accused criminals be justly convicted, and our system doesn’t take perjury very seriously. God loves justice.  Here’s just one of many verses one could point to:  Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Remember that when I say He loves justice, that doesn’t mean he loves it when the innocent aren’t punished.  He also loves it when the guilty are held accountable.  This can help rehabilitate the criminal, protect others from the criminal, and deter others from becoming criminals.

The Bible requires two or more witnesses for the death penalty: Numbers 35:30 Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

Then, those witnesses were required to put him to death: Deuteronomy 17:7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first to put him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

It also required justice for the poor, so they must have adequate legal counsel: Exodus 23:6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.

The U.S. legal system goes beyond what the Bible requires in some areas, such as Miranda rights and DNA evidence.  But it falls short in a crucial area: The integrity of witnesses.  According to the Bible, perjury was punishable by death.  Yet perjury doesn’t appear to be taken seriously in our country (and I’m not just talking about the Bill Clinton thing, though that didn’t help matters).

I was on a jury a few years back in Conroe, Texas (Population: Several).  A man was accused of fondling a 16 yr. old boy.  The boy’s testimony was pretty compelling, but the story had some holes.

The main problem was that witnesses on both sides were lying repeatedly.  (Here’s some free legal advice: If you are ever on trial and decide to invent an alibi witness who is an old buddy, no one will be able to locate via the phone or other records, then don’t change his last name part way through your testimony.  It looks a little suspicious.)  It appeared that some type of incident had occurred, but we didn’t have enough evidence to find him guilty.  Yet no one seemed to care about the perjury!

Now contrast our current system with the Biblical model for perjury:

Deuteronomy 19:16-21 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Did you catch that?  If you lied at a trial you were putting yourself at risk for the same punishment as the accused.  Couple that with the fact that two witnesses were required to convict someone of murder, and you have a pretty reliable system in place.  At least God thought so.
One drawback of these arguments is that they are easier to label as Israelite-specific than the universal commands of Genesis 9:5-6: And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
But I don’t think the answer is to end capital punishment because that same reasoning could lead us to suspend all punishments.  Many murderers are guilty beyond dispute (“Free Tookie” and Karla Faye Tucker come to mind), so there is no chance we’re executing an innocent person there.  The answer is to tighten up on perjury.  People need to know that lying under oath has serious consequences.

I am still in favor of capital punishment because I think the controls in place are adequate and, in some ways, more stringent than the Biblical model, but if I had to argue against it, I would play the “soft on perjury” card.

Let me close by putting the death penalty back in perspective.  Anyone making that argument had better be pro-life unless they can explain being for the legal killing of innocent human beings and against the destruction of guilty murderers.  Also see Abortion and Capital Punishment.

Favorites, Politics, Pro-life

Ineffective Biblical arguments against capital punishment

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gavel.jpgCapital punishment (CP) is a completely Biblical proposition if properly applied and is actually a pro-life position. In my next post, I’ll make some arguments from a Christian worldview against capital punishment as currently administered in the U.S. But first, I wanted to address some anti-CP arguments I would not use.

(Note that I don’t use the cost issues in either scenario – i.e., “Putting them in prison for life is too expensive” vs. “The legal costs of the death penalty are too expensive.”  Justice ain’t cheap.  We shouldn’t go one direction or the other just because it might cost more or less.)

I’ll address these arguments:

  • Jesus would forgive
  • We might be eliminating the condemned killer’s opportunity to place his trust in Christ and thus causing him/her to miss out on eternal salvation
  • Jesus is against capital punishment / Jesus reversed the Old Testament teaching on capital punishment
  • We might be killing someone innocent
  • Capital punishment is not a deterrent
  • The Bible says, “Thou shall not kill”

“Jesus would forgive” – Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason points out that Mother Teresa once used this argument to argue against a California capital punishment.  It is flawed for a few reasons.

First, Jesus would forgive if the criminal repented.  I don’t know if the condemned killer repented in that case or not, but many times they do not.  And, of course, only Jesus would know if the repentance is authentic.

Second, Jesus offers divine forgiveness, but he doesn’t always remove the earthly consequences of our actions (examples abound—see King David and Bathsheba, other Bible characters, you, me, and others).

Third, and most importantly, this argument proves too much.  The rationale that “Jesus would forgive” presumably means we shouldn’t apply the death penalty.  But those arguing against capital punishment typically drop back to a punishment of life in prison.  But if Jesus would forgive, how could we put this person away for life?  How about just 20 years in prison?  No, Jesus would forgive.  And so on.  The literal application of the “Jesus would forgive” position would keep us from punishing anyone, ever.  And no, that isn’t a slippery slope argument.  It just means that if you say society must forgive because Jesus would, and you define forgiveness as eliminating consequences, then why apply any punishment?

Another bad reason for this and the remaining arguments is that the ACLU would hate them because they mention the “J” word (sarcasm intended).  Actually, they might like the arguments.  Sometimes, people will relax their standards when something benefits their position.  I haven’t done precise Venn diagrams on this topic, but it seems like the “Jesus would forgive” crowd overlaps a lot with the “separation of church and state” crowd.

“We might be eliminating the condemned killer’s opportunity to place his trust in Christ and thus causing him/her to miss out on eternal salvation.” I am big on evangelism, and I love to hear the stories of people who repented and believed despite horrible circumstances and backgrounds.  David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, is a powerful example.  I am involved with the Kairos prison ministry and support ministries like Prison Fellowship that take the Gospel to prisoners and care for their families.  But this argument just doesn’t work for me.

First, anyone who puts it forth would have to acknowledge that the murder the criminal committed is an even worse crime than the state recognizes.  After all, the government is punishing the person for taking someone’s earthly life.  If you truly believe that an opportunity for eternal life was taken, then the crime is significantly greater, perhaps infinitely so.  That would imply the need for a stronger punishment, not a lesser one, so you are arguing against your own position.

Second, this argument ignores God’s sovereignty. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe that God knows which way we’ll choose. If someone holds a different view, they must revisit my first objection. I don’t think any non-believers will convince God that if only they had lived longer, they would have repented and believed.

Third, it takes many, many years before a convicted murderer is put to death.  He/she has plenty of time to consider whether to put his/her faith in Christ.  Condemned killers probably have more time than their victims did and, certainly, a greater sense of urgency to consider their eternal destiny.

“Jesus is against capital punishment / Jesus reversed the Old Testament teaching on capital punishment.” – This is much simpler to refute than most people realize.  Consider the following two arguments:

  • Capital punishment for murderers was God’s idea (For example, Genesis 9:5-6: “And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.  Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.”).
  • Jesus is God.
  • Therefore, capital punishment for murderers was Jesus’ idea.
  • The Old Testament clearly teaches that capital punishment is an appropriate punishment for justly convicted murderers – both inside and outside the Israelite culture.
  • No New Testament teachings reverse this teaching.
  • Therefore, capital punishment is still an acceptable punishment for justly convicted murderers.

Foreshadowing: My next post on “(Somewhat) Effective Biblical arguments against capital punishment” will focus on the “justly convicted” part.

It is possible that Jesus could have changed this teaching, but there are no passages to support this notion.  The Bible indicates that capital punishment was prescribed for more than a dozen Israelite-specific transgressions.  But capital punishment for murderers goes back much farther, all the way to Noah.

Peter and Paul both point to the government’s authority to punish people. In Romans 13, Paul specifically mentions that rulers do “not bear the sword for nothing.”   Presumably, the “sword” was for capital punishment, not corporal punishment.

When Paul was threatened with the death penalty in the book of Acts, he didn’t object to the penalty itself; he just pointed to his innocence (Acts 25:10-11).  Jesus did the same when He was on trial.

The “turn the other cheek” passage sometimes used to assert that Jesus was against CP is a misapplication.  That teaching is about personal relationships when you are insulted, not for government punishments of condemned killers.  It is hard to turn the other cheek when you are dead.  Think about it.

And while turning the other cheek when you are insulted is noble and Christian, turning the other cheek when someone weaker is threatened or killed is cowardice.  Read it in context, and you’ll see that it has nothing to do with the government administration of the death penalty:

Matthew 5:38-42 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

But what about the command to “love your enemies?”  Again, this is a passage to Christians, not the government.  It doesn’t even hint that the government wouldn’t hold people accountable for crimes committed against Christians.  If someone assaults you, you need to forgive them.  But jailing them may be the loving thing to do if it protects others (remember, you need to love your enemies and your neighbors).

Some people misinterpret the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11) and think it means Jesus was against capital punishment.  First, the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not include this passage.  If it is authentic, it is not primarily about capital punishment.  It is about Jesus out-witting the Pharisees and pointing out their inconsistency and hypocrisy.  But note that Jesus applied the Biblical model: There were no longer two witnesses to condemn her.  He never revoked the penalty.  He told her to go and sin no more.  (I wonder if those who quote this against capital punishment also quote it to oppose adultery?)

To make the case that capital punishment, in general, is un-Biblical, one would need at least one passage to that effect.  And it simply doesn’t exist. And, of course, anyone who likes to argue from silence (“Jesus didn’t say anything specific about ____, so _____”) would have to concede that Jesus did not overturn the death penalty.
“We might be killing someone innocent.” – If a Biblical model of justice is followed, the odds of this happening are very, very low.  And God was willing to take that chance.   This argument has some merit, as the U.S. has drifted from a more Biblical justice model.  I’ll address that in the follow-up post.
This is an unusual side note, but please consider that if someone is truly innocent, then their conviction is much more likely to be overturned if they are given the death penalty than if they have a sentence of life without parole. This is because a death penalty sentence has automatic appeals and legal support not available to someone with a sentence of life without parole.  Ironically, then, an innocent person sentenced to life without parole is more likely to die in prison than an innocent person given the death penalty.  This isn’t a major point either way, just one of those unusual twists.

Remember that many times, there is no doubt about the guilt of the accused (Remember Karla Faye Tucker and “Free Tookie,” among others).

“Capital punishment is not a deterrent” – Is so.  Romans 13:3: “For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.  Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority?  Then do what is right, and he will commend you.  For he is God’s servant to do you good.  But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing.  He is God’s servant and agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”  Sounds like a deterrent to me.

Please spare me any statistics that allegedly show that capital punishment increases murders or has no effect.  I appreciate a good study, but if you can find one that eliminates all issues like more fatherless kids, less religious influence, etc. – not to mention the interminably long process required to carry out an execution – I would like to see that one.  When in doubt, I’ll stick with clear Biblical teachings over man-made surveys.

Also, I think it is rather obvious that stronger punishments are greater deterrents.  I can prove it in 10 seconds: Do you think driving behavior would change if traffic tickets only cost a nickel or the punishment was life in prison?  Oh, and God says they are a deterrent:

And the rest shall hear and fear, and shall never again commit any such evil among you.(Deuteronomy 19:20, ESV)

And, of course, we can be 100% sure that capital punishment certainly deters murderers from killing again.  Many murders have taken place when murderers were set free or when other prisoners were killed.  If we love our neighbors, we will seek to protect them.

Does it deter everyone from killing?  Of course not.  But since when was that part of the criteria for establishing laws?  We have a criminal justice system because some will always break the law.

“The Bible says, ‘Thou shall not kill.’” Actually, it says you shouldn’t murder, which is killing an innocent human being.  And that is such a great crime that it brought the death penalty.  People who think that it is ironic to kill murderers are missing the point.  Life is so valuable that to take a human life is to commit the greatest crime possible.  

Anyone making that argument had better be pro-life, or they need to be prepared for me to point out the hypocrisy of being for the legal killing of innocent human beings and against the destruction of guilty murderers.  Also see Abortion and Capital Punishment.

Pro-life

Planned Parenthood vs. Planned Parenthood

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Marc T. Newman, Ph.D., President of MovieMinistry.com, gave a terrific presentation at a CareNet Pregnancy Center fundraiser years ago. One of the most intriguing things he mentioned was a Planned Parenthood advertisement published in 1964 to promote birth control (click the link or go to the end of this post).  Read the whole thing, then consider this from the Q&A section:

Is it [birth control] an abortion?

Definitely not.  An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun.  It is dangerous to your life and health.  It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it.  Birth control merely postpones the meaning of life.

There you have it!  Straight from the experts at Planned Parenthood.  Read that again and try not to drown in the irony.

So Planned Parenthood used to teach that abortion kills a baby and poses medical risks to the mother.  As Dr.  Newman asked, what did Planned Parenthood learn since the early 1960’s that caused them to change their stance on what abortion really does?  carenet-walk-05-55.jpg

Could it be the sonograms and 4-D ultrasounds?  No, those do more than anything to promote the pro-life view.  Technology is the enemy of pro-legalized-abortionists, and it always will be.  They might have gotten away with the “blob of tissue” argument in the 60’s, but not today.  The scientific fact is that life begins at conception.

Could it be the studies showing the impact of abortion on women?  No.  Despite major political pressure, more studies continue to show the adverse impact abortion has on women – both physically and emotionally.

Or could it be the megabucks they make from abortions that caused them to change their minds?!  money.jpg

Folks, always remember that when it comes to abortion, Planned Parenthood had it right the first time:

An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun.  It is dangerous to your life and health.

Be sure to quote them on that whenever you can, especially when talking to Christian(?!) pastors who support Planned Parenthood.

More on Planned Parenthood here — just your basic well-documented serial felonies of covering up statutory rape.  Your tax dollars at work.PPPlanYourFamily63

Pro-life reasoning

Pro-lifers don’t care about kids after they are born?

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Jill Stanek, pro-lifer extraordinaire, posed this question on a defunct blog: Are pro-lifers going to adopt all the unwanted babies?  We should welcome this objection by pro-abortionists. It lets us explain the underlying fallacy of their question and how they never apply it in situations outside the womb, how pro-lifers do a lot to help before and after delivery, and how the same obligation of caring falls on them.  They may not convert, but any objective middle-grounder will see the merits.

fireman pro life

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baby1.jpgOne of the most common sound bites/jokes that pro-choicers make about pro-lifers is that we are infatuated with the fetus but don’t care about kids after they are born.   The message is that if we don’t adopt all unwanted children, then we have no right to complain about abortion.  It is an important sound bite to be able to address because it is very common, and even pro-lifers I know are not only intimidated by it, but they have used it themselves as a reason to remain silent about abortion.

The “Pro-lifers don’t care about kids after they are born” line is one of my favorite arguments to rebut.  I teach people how to do it in pro-life training sessions in a two-step approach.  The tone of the conversation is important.  These arguments are powerful and quite effective if they are laid out in a calm, reasoned approach.  You probably won’t convert the rabid pro-choicers, but most middle-grounders will get the point.

First, show that pointing out a moral wrong does not obligate you to take responsibility for the situation.

If your neighbor is beating his wife, you call the police.  The police don’t say, “Hey, buddy, unless you are willing to marry her yourself, then we aren’t going to stop him from beating her.”  You can use child or animal abuse as examples as well.  Most people get the point pretty quickly.

Or ask the pro-choicer what they would do if the government decided to reduce the number of homeless people by killing them.  Could he protest that without having to house and feed them all himself?

You can also use the “trot out the toddler” approach promoted by Stand to Reason and ask if it would be acceptable to object to murdering a toddler even if you aren’t willing to adopt her.  Of course, the pro-choicer will always recognize the moral good of protesting toddler killing.  Then you can point out that killing innocent human beings is immoral and that the unborn are human beings.  So pointing out this moral wrong does not obligate us to do anything further.

Second, explain that while we aren’t morally obligated to help after the babies are born to be able to speak out against abortion, Christians do many things with their time and money anyway – orphanages, Crisis Pregnancy Centers (CPCs), food pantries, etc.

When I’m teaching CPC volunteers, I remind them of all that they and the center do: Pregnancy tests, ultrasounds, food, clothes, diapers, life skill training, parenting training, post-abortion counseling, and more – all for free!  And, of course, we share the Gospel with the clients if they are interested (Saving lives now and for eternity!).

The workers are mostly volunteers and the leaders make below-market wages because they believe in the cause.  Most centers receive no government funding, so all the money comes from donations.  There are far more Crisis Pregnancy Centers than there are abortion clinics.

When I tell people about CPCs, the typical reaction is, “I had no idea.”  Most people aren’t aware of all the good being done there.  In theory, CPCs are something pro-choicers could support as well.  After all, if women choose to keep their children, this is a great way to help them.  But Planned Parenthood et al. consider them public enemy because we take away some of their business.

You can also ask pro-choicers what Planned Parenthood and the like do for hurting women once the babies are born.  It is a really, really short list.  Do they provide free post-abortion counseling? (Of course not, because who would need that, right?)  Do they give diapers, formula, etc.?  Hey, they don’t even give free abortions (though they would love for your tax dollars to fund some).

Having said all that, I think the church can and should be doing even more in the area of adoptions and support for orphans.  Not because having pro-life views requires that, but because it is the right thing to do regardless of whether abortion is legal or illegal.

Here’s a bonus argument: A recent Stand to Reason Podcast brought up another good point that I hadn’t thought of.  Here’s an additional response to use: Unless someone concedes to being truly pro-abortion (i.e., they expect women to always have abortions or raise the children with no help from the public), then the pro-choicers are obligated to adopt the children as well.  Either that or give up espousing their pro-choice views.  After all, if you claim to be pro-choice and the women choose life, then the same caregiving obligation falls on you.

Think about it.  It may seem subtle at first, but it is a completely consistent argument.  Pro-lifers don’t think it should be an option to kill the unborn, so pro-choicers use the false logic that we can’t complain about abortion if we won’t adopt all the kids and raise them to adulthood.  But if the woman decides to choose life, then the pro-choicer would have the same moral obligation to raise the kids.

Here’s how I played this out in this comment thread:

Pro-legalized abortion commenter: Hard decisions belong between a pregnant woman and her caregivers, not “holier than thou” intruders, unless they personally are willing to raise, including medical care, education, and life care, all those fertilized eggs.

My response: Another canard.

Answer me this: Let’s say the government decides to solve the problem of homelessness by killing homeless people. Can you protest this without being willing to house them yourself?

You can also substitute other examples (Can you call the police if your neighbor is abusing his wife and children without having to marry her and adopt the kids?).

It is a simple question designed to point out the primary error of your argument: You don’t have to take ownership of a situation just because you protest a moral evil.

And even though I don’t have to raise those human beings (the ones you like to call fertilized eggs) just because I protest the evil of abortion, I actually do a lot with my own time and money via CareNet Pregnancy Center.

And by the way, unless you are truly pro-abortion, then you are obligated to help as well. After all, if you claim to be pro-choice and the women choose life, then the same care giving obligation falls on you.

So that argument self-destructs in at least three ways.

Finally, consider if the child was outside the womb. Do the women and her caregivers get to decide if the toddler lives or dies? Of course not. So the only question is whether the unborn is a human being. Since it is a scientific fact that she is, then people shouldn’t get to decide whether to kill her. And Christians especially shouldn’t support anyone’s right to kill her.

Other commenter: BTW, half of fertilized eggs don’t implant in the uterus, so is it illegal for a woman to have mensus?

My response: Are you seriously claiming that you don’t see the difference between the following?

1. Human being dies of natural causes.

2. Human being is crushed and dismembered by another human being.

I think most people can see the difference, whether 1 and 2 occur inside or outside the womb.

I’ve heard all the pro-legalized abortion sound bites many times and will be glad to debunk more for you. I hope that you are intellectually honest and reconsider your position on this crucial issue.

In summary, pointing out the moral evil of abortion does not obligate one to adopt all the babies.  But pro-lifers do help anyway.  A lot.  And they do it with their own time and money, not their neighbors’.

When pro-legalized abortion people try to put you on the defensive by asking how many kids you have adopted, use the reasons above to respond.  Also, you can ask how many they adopt from orphanages.   If they haven’t adopted any, then according to their logic, they couldn’t protest their destruction.

__________

Here’s a list you can copy and paste when someone accuses you of being inconsistent:

Do you know how much time and money I donate to help the poor or how much I pay in taxes?  [Pause]  Didn’t think so.  So why not stick to the topic, which is whether you should be able to crush and dismember children in the womb?  The “pro-lifers don’t care about those outside the womb/haven’t adopted all the children/etc.” canard is false on many levels. 
 
1. If people were slaughtering toddlers, the elderly, or anyone else the way they do unborn children, I guarantee that we would be protesting that as well.  So we are completely consistent in protecting innocent human lives regardless of location, and yes, we do care for life post-birth.  
 
2. You can speak against moral evils all day, every day, without being obligated to care for all the victims for life. If mothers were killing toddlers for the same reasons they give for abortions (money, career, love life, pressure from boyfriends/parents, etc.) would you stay quiet? Would you lodge the same criticism at those who spoke against toddler-cide without adopting all the children? Hopefully not. The question is whether the unborn are human beings. They are. At least, that’s what all the embryology textbooks say. Just because they are smaller, more dependent, and in a unique environment (formerly synonymous with a safe place) doesn’t mean their lives aren’t worthy of protection.  The right to life is a foundational human right.
 
3. The premise is false.  Countless pro-lifers help women and children before and after birth with their own time and money.  Pregnancy Resource Centers offer an array of free services. Planned Parenthood and the like make millions via abortion.
 
4. Asking the government to take money by force from others to supposedly help the poor does not qualify as charity on your part.
 
5. Do you criticize the American Cancer Society for not working on heart disease?  If not, why are you being prideful about your preferred ministry over what others feel called to?  That is if you actually do anything for others at all.  Using your logic, William Wilberforce didn’t do much because he “only” cared about abolishing the slave trade (not true, of course, as he did more than that, but it shows how ridiculous the pro-abortion argument is).
 
6. Unless they want forced abortions, pro-choicers have the same obligations to help that they put on pro-lifers.
 
7. The claim that we don’t care about children outside the womb is demonstrably false.  But even if their claim was true, it seems like the greater sin would be to approve of a child being literally crushed and dismembered rather than just not personally feeding someone else’s living child.
 
8. Imagine saying something similar to justify keeping slavery legal: “You think slavery is wrong but won’t help them get jobs, etc.”
 
9. Your basic reasoning is this: “It is OK to kill the child but not to risk her being impoverished.”
 
10. If you actually help them outside the womb with your money, we could swap labels and dismiss you: “You only help them outside but let them be killed inside.” Still illogical, but that’s what you get.
Here’s a handy jpeg you can use as well:
Pro lifers don't care about those outside the womb
Bible

Sorry, but Mary can’t save you or even hear you. Don’t pray to her.

This showed up in my stats from 2009, so I thought I’d update and rerun it.  It is still wrong to pray to anyone other than the Trinity.

I finally figured out how to turn comments off.  I think 308 is enough.  Thanks to all the commenters for participating.  Everything has been said multiple times by now.  If you don’t like something, just keep reading, and you’ll find someone who agrees with you.

The comments at Dawn Eden’s place were the same arguments refuted here.  Ironically, she titled her piece Attention, Catholic apologists: Share Mary with a skeptical Evangelical, thus tipping her hand that it is just as much about sharing Mary as it is about sharing Jesus for them.  While I might talk about Paul, Peter, or others in the Bible, it would never occur to me to say I would “share” them with someone.  It should all be about Jesus when it comes to that.

For the record, I am not skeptical at all.  I am highly confident that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.  I am equally confident that his mother, while a sinner in need of a Savior, was a great woman of God whose life teaches many important lessons. But under no circumstances should we pray to her or bow down to an idol of her, and under no circumstances are we required to have a relationship with her to get to Jesus.

Here are some of the more common arguments of the “Mary defenders.”

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A common false dichotomy was that you are either on the Catholic bandwagon for Mary or you are dishonoring her.  There is at least one other option: A proper understanding of her role.  This came up over and over.

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They agree that the Bible is infallible, which should be a great foundation for us both to reference.  However, they then dive into a circular reference where they insist that you need the authority of the Catholic church to determine what the Bible really says.  But where do they get that authority?  I challenged them to demonstrate it from the Bible and no one offered anything.  Even if they found something, it would be circular.  They often beg the question and assume that “church” means “Roman Catholic Church.”

As noted elsewhere, if we can’t read the Bible and understand it without the Catholic church’s interpretation, what guarantees that we’ll be able to understand the Catholic church’s interpretation?   Of course, it is helpful to have experts and study guides, but the Bible doesn’t require that.

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There are many non-sequiturs about how Jesus loved his mother, so [fill in the blank]. Yes, Jesus loved his mother, but that doesn’t mean we should pray to her or bow to her idol.

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The immaculate conception argument about Mary goes in circles.  They want to claim that she had to be without sin so Jesus could be born un-tainted.  But then it stands to reason that Mary’s parents must have been born without sin as well, and their parents, and their parents . . .  otherwise Mary would have been tainted.  Then they backtrack to say that something special was done at Mary’s birth.  But, uh, why couldn’t that have been done at Jesus’ birth as well?  Back to the beginning.

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Read the New Testament and look for mentions of Mary.  The Book of Acts: one passing note that she was in the room.  That’s it.

Romans?  Zero.  1 Corinthians?  Zero.  2 Corinthians?  Zero.  Hebrews?  Zero. And on and on.

I am not dismissing her importance, but the facts are clear: She was not a part of the Gospel message.  There are no references to her leading people to Jesus, answering prayers, appearing to anyone, etc. 

The apparitions of Mary typically have unbiblical or anti-biblical messages.  Therefore, they are not from God.

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Despite claims to the contrary, there is much evidence of people praying to Mary and other saints and bowing to idols of her. I’ve seen it myself, and many on this thread conceded that they pray to saints—not just talk to them but pray to them.

Here is a sample of documentation.

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A common argument was that we ask friends to pray, so we can ask the deceased to pray as well.  I think the difference is fairly obvious:

  1. The deceased are deceased, unlike friends here who are alive.
  2. The Bible says not to contact the deceased.
  3. The Bible does give examples of asking the non-deceased to pray.
  4. The Bible does not even hint that the dead have omniscience or anything close to it.

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A common claim was that if the Catholic church got the Bible right, all tradition is infallible. Does anyone see how that doesn’t follow?  Paul got his letters just right, but not everything he did was inspired.

They don’t demonstrate how the organization that administered the Canonization process is synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church.

They ignore the laundry list of errors the church has committed.  Again, I’m not saying the Protestants get everything right.  But they aren’t claiming infallible traditions, either.

We agree that the Bible is infallible, which is a great starting point. However, no one has ever demonstrated from our common source that the Catholic church’s tradition is infallible.

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I’ve heard of people praying to Saint so-and-so when they lose their keys.  Then they find the keys and treat that as validation.

But remember that Satan knows where your keys are. If you pray to the dead in clear violation of Scripture, then God is under no obligation to answer you or protect you.

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The “infallible tradition” position and the notion that we have to have the Roman Catholic Church interpret the Bible for us fail in other ways.

First, consider that the Bible teaches how to handle disputable matters in Romans 14. Now if the church was infallible and couldn’t get the interpretation wrong, why would the Bible mention such a thing?

Second, how do you know if you properly understood the church’s message? If you can’t be trusted to understand the infallible Bible, then why can you be trusted to understand the church’s allegedly infallible interpretation of it? Think carefully about that. It is bulletproof.

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When addressing the false teachings about praying to saints, I typically start by pointing out that the Catholics have the burden of proof to demonstrate from scripture that the saints can hear the prayers of nearly 8 billion people 24 x 7 x 365 in any language.

I read countless “just so” stories and hypothetical situations, but none with scriptural evidence and many that were in direct violation of scripture.

We should only pray to God.  Simple stuff.
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Update: A special welcome to visitors from Dawn’s blog!  Feel free to comment or look around.  We will probably not agree on Marian devotion, but you might enjoy some of the pro-life, pro-family, and other pieces.

—–

I greatly respect Dawn Eden’s pro-life endeavors and her promotion of abstinence in her book, The Thrill of the Chaste: Finding Fulfillment While Keeping Your Clothes On.  She makes winsome and compelling cases on some important issues.

But a sad side of her life transformation is that she has wholly embraced Catholicism and its false teachings.  Please note that I know many Catholics who hold authentic Christian beliefs about the essentials.  They are “bad Catholics” in the sense that they don’t buy the un-Biblical dogma from the bowels of the Roman Catholic Church, such as Mary worship, praying to the saints, purgatory, salvation by works, Papal infallibility, etc.  Their local parishes actually teach fairly sound doctrine.  I think there are many saved people in Catholic churches, just as there are many unsaved people in Protestant churches.  It all comes down to having true faith in Christ.  But we should seek to avoid all errors and find the most sound churches we can.

Dawn recently had a link highlighting a video about a man struggling spiritually. He was crying out for help. Guess who saved him? Jesus? No, it was Mary. The “highlight” of the video was a vision of Mary that shifted to a statue of Mary. It was just your basic idol worship.

I’ve read the Bible a bunch.  I see remarkably few passages about Mary and none that even hint at the role the Catholic church ascribes to her.  Granted, Protestants sometimes overreact in the other direction and ignore her, but they are far closer to the truth than Catholics.

I submit that if a vision of Mary comes to you, then it isn’t the real Mary.  It is Satan who is leading you away from the truth.

Mary can’t save you.

Jesus can.

I encourage commenters to focus on the post itself and not just attempt to recreate the Reformation (as great as the first one was!). The video in question wasn’t just about admiring Mary. The protagonist specifically cries out for God, and Mary appears. That’s really, really bad theology.

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Here are more “red letters” teaching you to read the black letters. 

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?”

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https://twitter.com/i/status/1548323323838312449
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I always make short prayers, so I’m safe here. Seriously, watch for the pastors – especially at megachurches – who are all about their glory and not that of Jesus. Also, note that some sins have greater consequences than others. All sins separate us from a perfect and Holy God, but not all sins have the same temporal or eternal consequences. 

Luke 20:46–47 “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

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Yes, this is super-gross. This food delivery company made a video telling gays how to get less feces on their penises when having sex. Ironically, while the homosexual lifestyle is disgusting, they exploit the “ick” factor in knowing that most people don’t want to talk about what they actually do. But toilet paper is a 20+ billion dollar industry for a reason. The fact that gays have to be encouraged to use condoms — and often still don’t! — is an additional sign of their pathology. There is nothing wrong with periodically reminding people that homosexual sex involves feces-covered genitalia.

Classic.

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Do you give to God first? If not, I recommend it. If you give him what’s leftover, there won’t be much. Giving to him first will remind you that you trust him to provide for everything you need.

Proverbs 3:9–10 Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

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‘Shortage Of Independence’: Katy Perry, Kim Kardashian, And Others Say ‘4th Of July’ Is ‘Canceled’ Over Roe V. Wade Ruling — Yeah, if you can’t freely crush and dismember your unwanted children, then what’s the point of the Revolutionary War? I mean, it is right there in the Declaration of Independence that these men were putting their lives on the line so that promiscuous women could avoid responsibility for their actions, even if it meant murdering their kids.

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Random musical interlude. Bobby Darin was great.

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Bette Midler Gets Attacked As A ‘TERF’ After Saying Women Are Being Erased Due to Terms Like ‘Birthing People,’ ‘People With Vaginas‘ — Pass the popcorn and the sweet, sweet, schadenfreude. Welcome to the Right-Wing, Bette! As the saying goes, there are 2 genders and 29 kinds of gay (and counting).

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Virginia School District Prohibits Teachers From Contacting Parents When Students Change Gender — Today’s “why are your kids still in government schools?” message.

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He’s a corrupt liar who sold out U.S. interests to foreign countries, and the media has known this. But they refused to tell you.

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United Church of Christ Funeral For Roe — It is no surprise that these Molech-worshiping ghouls mourn when fewer children are slaughtered. The UCC keeps losing members. In addition to the ejector seats, it might be because “Christian” Leftists worship the ability to crush and dismember their children.

The only good news is that the wolves got warm and took off the sheep’s clothing. Anyone supporting the UCC has zero excuses before God. They know they are rebelling against God and worshiping Satan and do it anyway.

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Wow. Powerful pro-gun and political ad.

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Largest Independent Abortion Business in Texas Closing all Their Locations — Such great news! The abortuary had the audacity to say that Texas was being cruel to ban abortions. No, cruel is when you crush and dismember innocent children.

Beth Moore Bashes Critics Over her Silence on Fall of Roe v. Wade — No surprise that she couldn’t celebrate this huge win. And she lives in Texas, where lives are being saved! Kevin DeYoung has a great takedown of people like her in this piece: When Roe was overturned. It is a satire of how Star Wars would have ended if the good guys would have behaved like Beth Moore et al.

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https://twitter.com/i/status/1543327702622654468

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One of our Italian Greyhounds drank half a glass of wine once and didn’t spill a drop. She normally got up at 6:00 AM, but slept until 10:00 AM the next day. She had a doggie hangover.

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Pure gaslighting from the “media” in pretending that Gray was wrong with her original comments. Notice how the host never offered facts or logic as to how one “really” changes gender, but just assumed it was true. Classic question begging. But Gray took the coward’s way out, so now no one will respect her. Despite her claim, being part of the Pervert Lobby doesn’t make you a hero. The bar for heroism is a *little* higher than having butt-sex with another guy. And just because you think you are something doesn’t make it so. If you want to be “who you are” then be the gender that matches your chromosomes. Anything else is fake.

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A timeless reminder of forgiveness and the grace of God. Without Jesus, there is no way I could ever stand before God.

Psalm 130:3–4 If you, O Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness, that you may be feared.

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American Actor Stricken With Monkeypox Goes Public: ‘This S*** Sucks’ — I saw the headline and immediately thought, “I bet he’s gay.”

Opening words of the article: “A gay actor . . .”

I hate being right.

My 87-year-old mom said she’d heard about Monkey Pox. I told her that as long as she stays out of gay orgies then she has nothing to worry about. She laughed, but it put her at ease over the latest “pandemic.”

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I can’t imagine why small business owners and employees would still vote Democrat after what was done to them during the pandemic.

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Anyone hiring a freak like this isn’t doing it based on the employee’s merits, but to rub your face in the Pervert Agenda. Not pictured: Rachel Levine. Any entity that hires people like this has too much money to spend.

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I accidentally turned my music on my iPhone during Sunday School once, and it happened to play Call Me by Blondie. People thought it was my ringtone, which would have been appropriate.

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Paying for abortions makes you an accessory to murder in God’s eyes. Woe to all the corporate ghouls who knowingly fund these.

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Yep, the pro-aborts exploit rape and incest victims to justify killing children for any reason.

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To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: Any “____phobia” term was created by perverted fascists to manipulate weak-minded people.

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Another great episode of this Podcast (you can also listen on any Podcast app). This one had a terrific analysis of Islam, especially how women are treated. Lots of points you can use and share. Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube. It is really well done.

People who use a podcast app can subscribe to the podcast here:
https://knightandrose.podbean.com/

Just pick your podcast provider at the top of the page. We have Apple, Spotify, Google, Podbean, Amazon, TuneIn, IHeart, Overcast, Samsung, etc.

The YouTube channel is here, please subscribe:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBARgElBvbBPwz3Ry2ImT1w/videos

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We celebrate Valentine’s Day at Arby’s (OK, we usually go out dancing as well). We got married right out of college and got dressed up and went out on a Friday night for our first Valentine’s Day as a married couple. We never thought about making reservations. The lines were unbelievably long so we left and ended up at the Arby’s drive-through. Then we went back to the apartment and watched Miami Vice. Good times! A couple years back, through the magic of IMDB and Netflix (before I canceled it), we were able to watch the same episode of Miami Vice that we watched that night.  Boy, did it suck. 

P.S. I don’t like to brag, but I’m an Arby’s alumnus. I worked at one the summer after my freshman year in college. Oddly, that doesn’t translate into discounts with them.  A little bit after I left, the assistant manager stole the weekend receipts and a bunch of roast beef. Spoiler alert: He got caught.  We had joked about him doing that, but apparently, he was serious about it.