Tag Archives: capital punishment

“If Mrs. Dahmer/Mrs. Hitler of the 21st century wanted to have an abortion, what would you say to her?”

I’m re-running this as a response to the “Would you have killed baby Hitler?” silliness floating around the Interwebs.  Just replace “Jeffery” with “Adolph” and you’ll get the point.
The provocative question in the title came from a recent commenter. She was referring to Jeffrey Dahmer, a mass murderer who identified as a homosexual. Of course, this hypothetical could never happen. We don’t know for certain what people will do in the future. How do I know that she is carrying Jeffrey and that he will kill many people? Is this a Hot Tub Time Machine situation?

But while suspending my reality for the sake of discussion, here’s my answer:

  • I would tell her not to abort, because abortion kills an innocent human being.
  • Killing people because they might kill — or even would be highly likely to kill — is a rather dangerous precedent. I’m one of those compulsively old-fashioned types who thinks you should punish people after they commit crimes, not before.
  • I would offer to give her parenting advice based on the word of God. It isn’t fool-proof, but it would increase his odds greatly.

I asked a couple clarifying questions for the commenter but oddly enough she never came back to answer them. Here they are for her, if she is still reading, and for anyone else sharing her views:

Do you approve of capital punishment for Jeffrey after he has committed his crimes? (If you are, you are an exception, as most pro-legalized abortionists I know are anti-capital punishment.) I realize that is sort of a “duh” question on my part considering that you want to execute him decades before his crimes, but I want to make sure I represent your views accurately.

Isn’t your objection to Jeffrey Dahmer that he killed innocent human beings? How is killing an innocent human being (at least at that stage of his life) consistent with that?

Isn’t it customary to wait until after people commit crimes to punish them?

Do you agree that the human being Mrs. Dahmer would have destroyed is actually Jeffrey at a particular stage of development?  If so, we agree that the unborn are human beings at a particular stage of development.

How do you know Jeffrey will be evil and not a hero [cough, cough] like Obama?

If she can have Jeffrey killed inside the womb for crimes he might or even “will” commit (in this hypothetical), can she kill him outside the womb for the same reasons? If not, why not?

If Mrs. Dahmer didn’t want to abort Jeffrey even though she “knew” what he would do, should the government force her to abort him? If not, can the government kill him outside the womb to protect others?

—–

My guess is that posing the Dahmer/Hitler question gets all sorts of virtual high fives and back slapping on pro-legalized abortion blogs, but I think it is pretty easy to prove how ridiculous the premise is. They work hard at justifying abortion. If only they would use their powers for good instead of evil.

What would the rest of you say to Mrs. Dahmer or to the commenter who brought this up?

Two questions to ask those upset about the 15 minutes it took to kill a convicted murderer

While conceding that capital punishments don’t need to take longer than necessary, there are a couple questions you can ask those upset about the 15 minutes it took for a murderer in Ohio to die.  First, a little background via Media Goes Crazy After Pregnant Woman’s Killer Executed, Ignores Abortion:

Last night by lethal injection of “untested drugs”, Ohio executed the brutal thug who, in 1989, raped and stabbed to death expectant mother Joy Stewart.

Naturally, the left wing advocacy media wants to let people know inhumane and cruel they believe it was by giving a play by play of what the killer went through in his final moments.   Examples of headlines, along with excerpts (bolded emphasis added by me):

AP – Executed Ohio killer Dennis McGuire took 15 minutes to die with never-before-tried drugs

LUCASVILLE, Ohio — A condemned Ohio inmate appeared to gasp several times and took more than 15 minutes to die Thursday as he was executed with a combination of drugs never before tried in the U.S. . . .

Here are the questions:

1. Are you familiar with the details of how he raped and killed the woman and her child?  (She was 8 months pregnant.).  It seems like it would have been newsworthy to include the reason he was being being to death.

2. Do you think people’s views on abortions would change if they were described in the same level of detail as the execution was?  Keep in mind that the unborn are completely innocent of any crimes, while this man raped and murdered a woman and her child.  Also keep in mind how they are killed — typically by having their skulls crushed and limbs ripped off, and how the pro-abortion lobby strenuously fights against anesthesia for the human beings killed in abortions.

Unlikely common ground

One of the few things that nearly everyone agrees upon — conservatives and liberals alike — is that the sex-slave trade is immoral and should be stopped.  There are a few liberal extremists that try to argue that prostitution is somehow empowering for women, but even most of them agree that kidnapping people or tricking them into slavery is wrong.

So what should be done?  Here are some ideas:

Reduce the supply

1. Institute the death penalty for slave traders.  Hey, it was good enough for the Israelite theocracy!

Exodus 21:16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”

Seriously, there needs to be some serious consequences for something so evil.  Put a few of them to death and that would save countless people from becoming slaves.  Or at least make it life without parole.

2. Increase education for at-risk groups, so they know the scams the traders use (i.e., offering jobs as nannies in other countries, then taking their passports).

3. Expose and de-fund Planned Parenthood, because they systematically hide statutory rape and sex trafficking.

Reduce the demand

1. Publicize the names and pictures of the customers and punish them.

2. Reduce access to pornography, which certainly fuels the demand for these girls.

Pro-capital punishment = pro-life

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I received a comment on this old post so I thought I would re-run it.

First, the comment.

I could only get through about the first few paragraphs before getting bored of the same old hypocrisy.  If killing people is wrong, then killing anyone is wrong. And that includes killing those that kill.

My reply:

Can you see the difference between A and B?

A. Innocent but unwanted human being crushed and dismembered in the womb with no appeals.

B. Convicted rapist / murderer put to death in least painless way possible after surviving 10+ years of appeals.

If you can’t, then rational dialog here will be impossible.

Too many people confuse the principle of capital punishment and the practice. There is nothing wrong with capital punishment in principle: A life for a life. There can be things worth debating about CP in practice.

There are 20,000+ abortions in the U.S. per week and one capital punishment. If anyone thinks CP is unfairly applied then they are welcome to oppose it. But if they are pro-legalized abortion then I will mock them until my fingertips are raw.

The original post

Huh?  How can a pro-capital punishment position be considered pro-life?  OK, I’ll concede that it isn’t particularly pro-life for the one receiving the death penalty.  But it is pro-life for the rest of us.  For what it is worth, I do prison ministry and know more murderers than most people do.  I’m not all hot-blooded about killing people, I just don’t like to see bad arguments on either side of the issue.

I realize that the media, pro-choice people and comedians like to mock the alleged inconsistency of pro-lifers who are also pro-capital punishment (“They oppose killing in the womb but don’t mind it for those outside the womb!  Ha!”).    I’ve heard many Christians poke fun at it as well.

But that argument is just a foolish sound bite, as it assumes that killing an innocent unborn human being is morally equivalent to killing a convicted murderer.   One is innocent, the other guilty.  If they want to argue against capital punishment then they need better reasoning than that.

Capital punishment is pro-life in that it regards the taking of innocent human life as the greatest crime, and thus deserving of the greatest punishment.  It also recognizes the deterrent effect as well as the prevention of future murders (executed criminals hardly ever kill again).  Therefore, it seeks to preserve additional innocent lives.  This is consistent with the pro-life view that abortions are permissible if the life of the mother is at stake.

If people want to make jokes about inconsistencies, a better example would be those who don’t mind the crushing and dismemberment of innocent human beings (without anesthetic) but protest when a convicted murderer is to be executed and who want to ensure he dies as painlessly as possible.

As always, I am pro-choice provided that the unborn get the same 10 years of appeals that convicted murderers do.

Perhaps we should just call capital punishment “123rd trimester abortions.”  Then the pro-choicers would support it.

Finally, consider how many pro-legalized abortionists wax philosophical about how we just don’t know when life begins.  Aside from the scientific fact that life begins at conception, they never consider erring on the side of caution.  If you aren’t sure where life begins, wouldn’t it be prudent to err on the side of life?  But here’s the bigger irony: While they ignore that rather obvious point, they have no problem saying we should never use capital punishment because we might be executing someone who is innocent.

I realize that there can be legitimate concerns about whether capital punishment is always applied fairly, but that is a topic for another day.  Just for the record I do have concerns about how it is applied in the U.S. If we used a Biblical model for justice (i.e., two eye witnesses and punishments for perjury equivalent to the crime in question) then I’d be more comfortable with it.

Also see ineffective arguments against capital punishment and somewhat effective arguments against capital punishment.

Governor stops abortions in Oregon, calls system ‘compromised and inequitable’

Oh, wait, he did that with executions, not abortions.  Never mind.

See Gov. John Kitzhaber stops executions in Oregon, calls system ‘compromised and inequitable’

But just imagine if the headlines read, “Gov. John Kitzhaber stops abortions in Oregon, calls system ‘compromised and inequitable'” instead.  The Left would go wild.

Or what if President Bush had pre-emptively not enforced Roe v Wade in the same way that President Obama decided not to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act?

After all, the rate of abortions in the black community is 3x that of whites, so the system must be racist. And the Roe v Wade opinion noted that if we knew when life began then it would matter (even though they should have erred on the side of life!).

Well, all the scientific texts tell us that a new human being is created at conception, so the Governor (or even the President) would be well served to start saving innocent lives today.

Abortion, capital punishment and Troy Davis

Given all the news about the Troy Davis execution (and the relative lack of news about the execution of James Byrd’s killer – -where are his defenders, by the way?), I thought it was time to re-run this simple pie chart.  (First, though, be sure to read Ann Coulter’s piece about Davis, which has a lot of specific, accessible facts that anyone is welcome to try and refute.  Oddly, none of the mainstream media pieces I’ve seen on him mention any of her facts.  It is almost as if they have an agenda . . .)

My main point here is to note that if the people complaining about Davis’ alleged innocence were remotely consistent, they would be going insane over the “capital punishment” of roughly 20,000 innocent human beings in the U.S. this week.  Their crime?  Being unwanted by their parent(s).  And they are completely, indistiputably, 100.00% innocent of any capital crimes.  But they get no trials, no t-shirts and no sympathy from the mainstream media or the Left.  They are just destroyed and forgotten.

Oh, and on the capital punishment / racism angle, remember that the abortion rate for blacks is 3 times that of whites.  Yet the Left reflexively plays the race card on the Right?!

pie_chart-abortion_and_capital_punishment.jpg

I was once asked why I am pro-life but not anti-capital punishment (I am in favor of capital punishment, but only if it is applied in a Biblical model). The pro-life / pro-capital punishment view is often ridiculed in the media and entertainment, and I have heard many Christians mock it as well.

The main reason I find the pro-life movement to be more important is shown in the pie chart above. Since the Roe v Wade Supreme Court decision, there have been over one million abortions per year. I rounded down to a million and then calculated the weekly amount of 19,231 human beings killed per week. Then I graphed the average of 1 (one) death via capital punishment per week (actually, the average is about 0.65, but I rounded up). It took almost thirty years to mark the 1,000th execution since the Supreme Court ruled it was legal again.

So what you see is a rather odd pie chart. The capital punishment slice of the pie is almost invisible.

In a given week in the U.S., there are 19,231 deaths of completely innocent humans versus 1 death of a convicted murderer who survived an average of over 14 years of appeals, and whose guilt is virtually certain. (And this doesn’t even take into account the shattered lives of the  women/boyfriends/husbands/parents who live with the pain of having the abortions or encouraging someone to have one). That is why my energy would still be directed to the pro-life movement even if I thought that capital punishment was un-Biblical.

Actually, I am OK with unrestricted access to abortions – provided that the unborn get the same 10+ years of appeals that condemned killers do.

Or, to paraphrase Randy, I’m pro-choice as long as the unborn human being is the one making the life or death decision.

More on capital punishment here.

Capital punishment in the news

White Supremacist Gang Member Executed for Dragging Texas Man — I almost missed this due to the focus on the Georgia execution.  I am glad to see justice done here.

It seems ironic, though, that the crowd allegedly opposing “hate speech / hate crimes” (I say allegedly because they are the biggest haters in my view) typically oppose the death penalty.  Yet I’m for it in cases like this, so I supported a much stronger penalty than they did.

I repeat: For a crime that epitomizes hate and racism, I supported a stronger penalty than the hate speech / hate crime advocates.  They would typically oppose the punishment that I support.

These news items typically bring out the “Christians should oppose the death penalty” lines.  But the death penalty was God’s idea.  And He never apologized for it, and never overturned it.

Christians can oppose it in practice, if they think that it isn’t being fairly applied, but they shouldn’t oppose it in principle.

The Christians who insist you must oppose the death penalty always end up using bad reasoning. I’ve seen them use “turn the other cheek” (uh, it is hard to do that when you are dead) and other out-of-context passages to support their views.  I addressed this more in two posts — ineffective arguments against capital punishment / somewhat effective arguments against capital punishment.