I’ve had a concealed carry permit for about 10 years, but there are many places where it can’t be used legally or is impractical. As one friend said, so many places he goes have too many innocent people around to be able to use a concealed carry weapon. Still, it is good to have that option, and our training was excellent.
But I’m also a big fan of pepper spray. My family and I carry some wherever we go and have extras in our cars. You never know when you might need it, and the consequences of misuse are much lower than with a gun.
Things are getting weirder by the day in this country, so I encourage everyone to have a plan in case they are attacked.
Eternity Matters 
I took and passed the carry class, but our county had made the permit process incredibly difficult during COVID so I never got the permit. My plan is to complete the process soon. I don’t anticipate carrying all the time, but would like the option if it makes sense. I haven’t done the pepper spray thing, but was with some friends who were telling us about the kind they carry last week. I probably should at least keep some handy.
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Glad you took the class! Yeah, it is frustrating that they make it so hard to apply and renew. The Founding Fathers would hate that, though at least we can carry at all.
Yes, great to have some pepper spray handy. And it only costs about $10.
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We took the class for the training as much as for the permit, and I suspect it would be valuable to take again if necessary. Hennepin County isn’t gun friendly in normal times, and was worse during COVID. I’ll definitely get it because if I’m showing houses in N MPLS after 4:30 during the winter, it would be nice to have the choice.
I am amazed at how many of my colleagues carry, and advertise it on social media, seems to defeat the purpose.
I’ll definitely give the spray a look.
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I have a permit, but recently my state (SC) became one of the newest Constitutional Carry states. There are now more than half the United States with some form of this. It means no CCW permit is necessary for the law-abiding, though due to other states not having that Constitutional!! liberty, to have a permit anyway allows cross state line carrying…if the state to which one intends to enter recognizes your state’s permit. Good gosh how tough they make it to defend one’s own life!!
I don’t carry that often at all, as I’m still trying to find a suitable holster. Carrying is uncomfortable. But I know a few cops, one being a friend since before his LE career, and he’s always carried for years and still does now that he’s retired. He always carries.
A former co-worker, when I drove for a contractor moving mail in semis, carried a Ruger .380 in his pocket all the time. Pretty risky when working for the USPS. But then I thought…why not? A .380 isn’t the best choice for getting the job done, but it is very concealable! So I want one.
There are many places one can’t carry even with a permit. It’s always the same story…the law-abiding are put at risk to allay unreasonable fears that by carrying, the law-abiding are risks to everyone around them. Speaking of the law-abiding, the more I know such a person, the less likely I am to be concerned that they are packing even when walking into my home. Why would I be? The foolish have made it tough for everyone, and no more so than regarding this situation.
Among the things I urge my federal reps to do is to push for reciprocity across all fifty states, as they do for driver’s and marriage licenses.
As to pepper spray, I don’t know how many varieties there are and how different from each other they might be. In high school, at a dance at or school, I got a face-full of some by another student (a peripheral friend, in fact) and I recall minor discomfort but in my drug altered state felt it best I begin hacking and rubbing my eyes like everyone else so as not to attract attention by the wrong people…like teachers and the school cop who were present. Since then, I recall this event when I read about pepper spray not being that effective for inebriated thugs. Well, I’m no thug, but I was inebriated to say the least. The thing is, the same is true for bullets. Those in the know recommend multiple rounds, especially until the thug drops his own weapon.
Another option I procrastinate on investigating is the Byrna non-lethal gun. It fires impact or tear-gas ammo, but won’t kill. I just don’t know how bulky they are or how it works with multiple attackers.
That’s my two cents.
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Yes, we should have reciprocity. The 2nd Amendment should make it so we don’t even need a license.
We originally took our training in Texas, then in NC when we moved here. But they also covered the SC laws because we are so close to it.
I prefer a pocket carry with a small 9mm Sig Sauer. It only holds 6-7 rounds, but my Glock 19 – which holds 15 — is too bulky for me.
Hadn’t heard about the Byrna non-lethal option. Sounds interesting.
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At some point, I will need to consider a holster. Given our temperatures most of the year, it’s not unusual to wear a coat of some kind which helps considerably. In all honesty, I’m surprised we have legal CCW carry at all, and the likelihood of any broadening of that is pretty slim at this point. My target state for retirement, UT, does have Constitutional carry, so that will be nice.
I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to carry my VP9 without too much difficulty if/when I do. .380 seems like such a marginal performer for self defense that I think I’d rather carry spray than a .380. But to each their own. I’ve shot a couple of small frame 9mm and my hands are too big for them to be comfortable to shoot. I shoot OK with them, and practice would help if I owned one, but I like what I have.
My preference would be to not kill anyone, but …
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Indeed, Craig. It’s my preference as well. More so is my preference to know how I would respond to lethal threats to myself or my loved ones, and would I have the coolness under duress to make the right call and have the stones to take out that threat…because my preference is not to kill anyone.
I saw a Ruger 9mm which I mistook for a .380 because of its size. Haven’t seen it in the rental case where I shoot. I have a subcompact 9mm, with a couple 13 and a 15 round mags, which makes them easier to handle. I watch a lot of gun-related YouTube videos, most of which are gun reviews, and the Honest Outlaw is a great source. He’s a big dude who speaks often about small guns working for his big hands, but he has spoken well of a few which found a place on his “best” lists. He likes a particular Ruger .380, the exact name of which escapes me at present. But I’m interested in one which has double stack mags. I think most people dismiss such calibers on lethality grounds, but the penetration criteria for FBI doesn’t matter when on is aiming for particular body parts and firing multiple rounds at it.
As to that, there’s one Christian shooter who spoke of using a .22 for self defense. It’s been said that .22 can actually bounce off skulls. But then again, who wants to get hit with any bullet? His demonstration included a target dummy, walking up to it, and emptying the typically large capacity mag common with .22s into the face of the target dummy. Given most thuggery is up close and personal, small caliber debates leave out such facts.
Small caliber is easier to conceal, and absent any metal detectors can go anywhere one wants to go an never be noticed. While a situation might result in banishment from the establishment, it might also result in gratitude if a thug is prevented from harming the innocent and unarmed. I’ll take that tradeoff most days.
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I’ve heard that 22s are fine if you are a trained assassin, but not great for killing otherwise. I’d fire as a last resort, but if I’m firing it is shoot-to-kill.
I shot a friend’s 22 with a silencer. Lots of fun – incredibly quiet and almost no kickback.
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Neil,
The problem with those smaller calibers is that it is necessary to make up for the failings of the caliber. Pinpoint accuracy is one option, although it’s incredibly difficult under stress without extensive training. Spray and pray, putting a full magazine of .22LR into someone instead of 1/2 9mm. Or getting very close to your attacker, I don’t think I need to explain why that’s bad. If you’re that close, a knife is probably more effective.
I think that a .22LR with a suppressor would absolutely be fun to shoot, and really useful in certain situations (assassination being one), but wouldn’t seriously consider regular carry unless it was the only option. Also, I think .22 mag could be a better choice for some people, but it’s not common.
I’ve got a ’50’s Mossberg bolt action .22 with a heavy barrel, that I’m planning on trying some higher velocity ammo through at some point. It could be a fun practice gun, even though it’s heavy.
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Agreed. We standardized on 9mm for our pistols. We should probably get a shotgun for home defense but haven’t gotten around to it. Much less margin for error.
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We’ve done the same. VP9 and a Ruger PCC in 9mm, and a 16 gauge shotgun that we inherited from my father in law. I feel like that gives me enough to cover 7-50ish yards out. I’d like to add something in .223 or an M1 carbine for a little more reach if needed. My wife isn’t a fan of guns (although the riots persuaded her to start shooting and grab a couple of guns), and I don’t think she’d be jazzed about an AR. I’ll probably start looking at a Mini 14 when I get closer to buying. Not being a hunter, it’s hard to justify much more than that.
I just did some research on the .22 mag and it looks intriguing as a low recoil option if hand strength is a problem. Especially as there one with a 30+1 capacity. Not a big fan of spray and pray, but it’d probably be good to distract someone long enough to get out of the way.
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Art,
Obviously no one looks to take a life, but it i soften necessary. Yet it might someday be necessary. Just as obviously things like stopping power are real, the fact is that until the fairly recent advent of effective bullets and better powders the .380 and .22LR have been considered under powered for defense. Now those calibers have become minimally appropriate for defense, but sub optimal. Being shot by a BB hurts like heck, I can only assume that a .22LR or .380 would be worse. Given that, it still seems like (per my research) that 9mm is kind of the minimum caliber that most would consider for defense. I keep hearing people say that 5.7 isn’t a great option for defense, even though it’s kind of trendy. I mean, a sharp pointy stick is better than nothing, but there are better options.
As far as size, it’s simply a matter of personal preference, budget, and other factors. I planned to qualify with a friend’s compact 9 so that my wife could qualify with something she was more comfortable with. I shot the compact enough that I would have qualified with it, but it wouldn’t have been my first choice. I’m also not really in the market for something smaller, so I’m not motivated to try stuff out. If I was then I’d be interested in all of the options (extended mags, etc) to mitigate the grip size issues.
If someone chooses to carry a small caliber for whatever reason, that is their choice. There are plenty of good reasons to do so. But from a ballistics standpoint, it’s pretty cut and dried. I’d also suggest that, from a legal standpoint, that walking up to a person and emptying a high capacity magazine into them at contact distance seems likely to be viewed poorly by a jury. Further, per my carry class and some study, allowing someone to get within arms reach of you is not a good plan.
In any case, it is possible to make almost anything work with the right circumstances.
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I disagree with most of what you’re saying. But one needn’t “allow” a thug to get in one’s space. They do so without permission, making multiple rounds with any caliber easier to put on target. Thugs want to threaten, so close is better for that. They don’t want to miss if murder is part of their plan, so close is better for that. Regular practice with a small caliber pistol will allow for better grouping, as recoil in something like a .22 is minimal. The .380 I did try out snapped a bit, but not like my Hellcat. I’ve seen videos about 10mm which I found very intriguing…good for protection against bears…with serious damage requiring far fewer rounds. But most “stopping power” is a matter of hitting something significant…heart, brain…and most other targets allow for some desperate acts of return fire if the thug is insistent upon causing harm. It’s not uncommon for the first hit to result in massive girlish screaming and flight. I recall a hilarious video…I think you posted it…with a guy riding shotgun in a car and accidentally shooting himself in the leg. What a total man that guy was!!
Anyway, one needs to find something one feels confident in using and then practicing regularly to give one’s self the best chance of surviving an encounter with a thug.
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One of the benefits of a gun in a defensive caliber is that it allows you to prevent an assailant from getting close enough to you to bring other weapons or their fists into play. If your defensive strategy is to wait until the assailant is close enough to pump a magazine full of tiny bullets into them at contact distance, I’d argue that your strategy is flawed.
Stress is one of , if not the, biggest factor in most self defense shootings. Stress, is why CCW instructors teach you to aim for center mass and shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. The reason for this is that the vast majority of CCW holders do not have the training and technique to aim for small targets. Further, sub caliber rounds are unlikely to penetrate or even damage the sternum or a rib enough to stop an assailant. As has been pointed out, a .22LR doesn’t have the ability to penetrate a skull unless it’s at contact distance. I’m not saying that a sub caliber can’t work or isn’t better than nothing, I’m saying that it introduces factors into the situation that make defense harder rather than easier.
The 10mm is an interesting round. From what I’ve read it was abandoned by the FBI because of over penetration, and has lost popularity because of that. My research suggests that it’s utility against bears is that it is the only relatively common (not .50AE) semi auto round that has a chance at possibly stopping a bear. What I’ve seen is that the 10mm’ s effectiveness against bears relies on one of a few specific bullet types, and on hoping that spraying through a full magazine will put enough shots into the bear to hit something vital. Like a .22LR, it can work, but it doesn’t seem to be the optimal choice.
Stopping power is a result of velocity x bullet weight x bullet expansion. It’s pure math. Large heavy bullet at @900 fps (think .45 ACP, FMJ) gets you good stopping power. Smaller, expansive, lighter bullet (9mm) can provide good stopping power. That can be improved with certain loads. In all of the reading and training I’ve done, I’ve never heard anyone suggest that stopping power is dependent on hitting a small target very precisely.
Obviously training is the best answer in terms of what you can control. I can control how many rounds I shoot in practice. I can control my technique. I can choose my caliber and load carefully. I can try to induce stress into my practice (probably need to find places that allow that). But, that’s about it. Mindset and center mass are probably the two most important factors.
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Craig,
You’ve twice suggesting “letting” a thug get close, or that I would intend to walk up to anyone and blast away. So I’ll clarify yet again: Thugs enter a victim’s space, with the intent of doing so in a manner which doesn’t alarm the victim. They’ll avoid telegraphing their intentions until they’re close enough to get busy, in whatever way busy is intended to manifest. They don’t warn you even when playing “the knock-out game” or before pushing you onto the train tracks in the subway. Thus, it is likely when they are really close that most people will even recognize they’re about to be assaulted in some way. This casual approach works best regardless of whether the intention is only to rob, or if it’s to murder. They don’t work long distance. They’ll often be within reach, which means I can put whatever caliber gun I’m carrying against them and empty the mag into their belly.
But I don’t dispute the superiority of .9mm or better over .22 or .380. Not in the least.
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Art,
That’s why so much of personal defense emphasizes situational awareness. Once the miscreant is within arms reach, they’ve achieved their goal. Feel free to empty 17 rounds of a under powered cartridge into someone’s stomach from point blank range and see how that plays to a jury. There’s a reason why people going in harms way practice the double tap, or Mozambique drill. They know that two shots, center mass, is the best way to start. They know that trying to train someone to shoot for a small, moving, target under stress with less than optimal training is a fools errand.
Under most circumstances the following are the preference.
Carry a caliber with adequate ballistic performance, with projectiles that maximize that performance.
Practice with whatever you carry, as often as possible. Introduce stress to practice if possible.
Aim for center mass with a minimum of two shots, follow up as needed to make the threat stop.
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Art,
To be clear, I’ve suggested that carrying a caliber that requires allowing a miscreant to get close enough to put a magazine full of under powered, small caliber, rounds into them at point blank range is a bad strategy. Doing so almost guarantees that you’ll be injured if not killed. Anyone who would advocate for such a strategy seems like a bad example to follow.
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You continue to speak in terms of “allowing” the thug to get in one’s space. That’s not even a consideration. But despite one’s best to properly ascertain a threat in advance, threats will get close. I don’t think you’ll find too many cases, aside from the typical mass shooting scenario, where a threat hasn’t gotten close. So you can pretend that you’ll know with absolute certainty of a threat’s intentions before they get too close, and then know you’ll put all rounds on target. Good luck. But it’s far more likely the dude will be close.
Given the concept of situational awareness, and the hope that one will know when one is in danger soon enough to act, it would seem logical to meet the threat head on (all this assumes a degree of training and preparedness where a confrontation takes place anyway)…that is, walking up to a threat and taking care of business. I would never consider such a thing without a real degree of certainty that the threat was lethal, without which there’s no need to draw one’s weapon anyway. And without that reasonable expectation of lethal threat to one’s person, that will play a lot worse in front of jury than how many rounds you put into his belly should the threat be close enough.
I’m not a gun expert. But having spent some years in martial arts, and an ongoing interest in preparing for trouble should it find me, the notion of a thug managing to get really close is part and parcel of the thug MO. The best of them get close every time. I would expect that drawing my gun will be more risky than merely jabbing him in the eyes, after which I can then draw my gun and fire if need be. This includes having a thug drawing on me first.
I would alter my statements if we’re talking about multiple thugs approaching. I believe this would be easier to acknowledge threat potential with two or more approaching. If I alter my course and they follow, it’s pretty clear I’d better steel myself. I take absolutely nothing for granted.
On a side note, I coincidentally came upon a video regarding bear defense. The “host” spoke of a well trained guy who is mostly trained with his favorite .9mm. Apparently this trained fellow has had encounters with bears more than once, and because of his comfort and proficiency with the .9, he can put a lot of round in a small space, which is key in any encounter where a lethal threat is clear. This came in a discussion of which caliber is proper for bears, and in one demonstration with a moving (toward the shooter) target with a life-size bear picture on the front, the “host”, using a larger caliber (possibly that .10mm, but I don’t recall) could not get a tight grouping and few in the head/face area as a result. Different results with a smaller caliber. Just thought I’d throw that in there.
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Art,
“You continue to speak in terms of “allowing” the thug to get in one’s space. That’s not even a consideration.”
You are the one who introduced, favorably, some internet guy who advocated waiting to use his .22LR until the attacker got close enough to fire from contact distance. Based on my reading and training, I cannot imagine a scenario where this is a good strategy, yet you offer it as rationale to use .22LR as one’s primary defense weapon.
The most common distance for a self defense shooting is between 3-7 yards. While this is close, it’s beyond arm’s reach for almost everyone, and certainly beyond placing your .22LR in contact with the assailant and putting 15-20 tiny bullets in their stomach.
“And without that reasonable expectation of lethal threat to one’s person, that will play a lot worse in front of jury than how many rounds you put into his belly should the threat be close enough.”
The first part goes without saying, which is why you felt the need to say it. The second is based on what you introduced as a reasonable defense strategy. I’m merely pointing out that beyond the danger to oneself from firing from contact distance, that it’s going to look worse in court.
It’s interesting that you think that one guy who’s had multiple encounters with bears (no specifics) who is able to place 9mm rounds with precision is a justification to encourage people using 9mm as a bear cartridge. The notion that most people would choose to use an under powered (for bear) cartridge, and trust to their fine motor skills in a high stress situation (when fine motor skills are the first to go under stress) sounds ridiculous on it’s face. There is a reason why CCW trainers focus on center mass for defense. It’s because it’s easier to hit. Maybe you’re the exception who isn’t bothered by high stress situations, who’s fine motor skills and eyesight are perfect, and who’s ability to hit small moving targets is unmatched. If so, awesome.
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