A Facebook conversation on abortion

I had an extended-play discussion with someone on Facebook that I didn’t want to go to waste.  It was fairly classic reasoning from someone on the pro-legalized abortion side, and it remained civil throughout.  I hope people will take the time to go through it and see how to navigate through these conversations.  It takes a little practice but we’ve got the science and logic on our side (and the word of God, if they are interested in that!).  The other commenter used the same arguments and tactics (i.e., changing the subject) that professional pro-aborts use.

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EMatters:  And he [Obama, at the recent prayer breakfast] spoke of speaking up for those who can’t speak for themselves, yet he’s the most pro-abortion President ever.

Other person:  how is he any more pro choice than clinton?

EMatters:  Obama wants taxpayer-funded abortions and even opposed the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. When you are so pro-choice that you read the Constitution and see a right to a dead baby, even if she survives the abortion, then you are pro-abortion.

Other person:  no one is pro abortion. you can skew the argument all you want. Its Pro Choice

EMatters:  If someone supports taxpayer-funded abortions then I think it is fair to refer to them as pro-abortion. Think about their premise: “There should be more abortions than there are already, so we need taxpayers to fund them — many of which are pro-life.” If wanting to increase abortions isn’t pro-abortion I don’t know what is.

EMatters:  Having said that, I don’t care if someone is “just” pro-choice to crush and dismember innocent yet unwanted human beings. It is still wrong to take innocent human life for 99% of the reasons given for abortions.

Other person:  you have every right to have that opinion. as i do mine.

Other person:  but you still havent made the case for this president being the MOST pro abortion president ever.

EMatters:  Show me one who was pro-taxpayer funded abortions and who fought against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

EMatters:  Yes, you have a right to your opinion. I never thought otherwise. I encourage people to base opinions on facts and logic. Here’s mine: It is a scientific fact that the unborn are human beings from fertilization (http://tinyurl.com/yfje8lq). And most people agree that you shouldn’t kill an innocent human being just for reasons of economics, romantic life, education, career, etc. Therefore, abortion is immoral in 99% of the cases (the exception being to save the life of the mother, which is consistent with the pro-life ethic).

You can have a different opinion on whether the unborn are human beings, but I have all the embryology textbooks on my side.

You can have a different opinion on whether innocent but unwanted human beings can be killed as well.

The Case Against Abortion: Medical Testimony  www.abort73.com  A new human being comes into existence during the process of fertilization.

Other person:  http://www.issues2000.org/celeb/Bill_Clinton_Abortion.htm  Clinton actually used a number of executive orders to undo some pro-life legislation. i dont believe obama has.  if its so cut and dry then why did the supreme court rule the way they did…..or with their conservative advantage overturned it. Why hasnt congress drafted legislation to ban abortion if its so apparent

EMatters:  Re. Clinton — I assume you don’t think I’m a Clinton fan ;-). He was bad on abortion as well. That is a contest no one should be proud to win. Obama has also done his best to export abortion.

EMatters:  I encourage you to study Roe v Wade and how Justice Blackmun was pressured to make it happen. It doesn’t get overturned (yet) because of all the money involved. Planned Parenthood and the other aborts make huge $$ and funnel it back and forth to politicians.

Interestingly, Blackmun conceded that if if we knew life began that would change things. He made a major scientific error there. Even PP used to be pro-life and knew when life began — http://tinyurl.com/ykeex9e — that is, until they realized how much money they could make.

Having said all that, I don’t follow your point about it not being cut and dried. My scientific fact and simple logic are there to criticize, if you like. But there existence of an opposing view doesn’t mean there is no morally correct view.

The issues surrounding abortion are psychologically complex. I do pregnancy center ministry and can attest that the pressures on women are severe (often from boyfriends pushing them to “choose” to abort). But there is moral simplicity: You shouldn’t kill an unborn human being for the reasons given for abortion.

Other person:  there is just a much pressure on women to have a baby they arent capable (or willing) to care for. There are also women that are very much in control of their lives that find themselves in a motherly way who want to maintain the right to determine whether or not to have a child…..just the speed of the backlash against Komen today should show you that women will fight to preserve this right

So eMatters: , let me ask you, are you pro capital punishment? What do you think about us killing Bin Laden? Are you in the “all life is sacred” camp or do you pick and choose which already “birthed” people deserve to live?

EMatters:  Re. capital punishment, there are questions of practice (e.g., Can you get a fair enough trial given our lax treatment of perjury?) and questions of principle (i.e., is it always wrong to use CP?). Your question was about the principle of CP, and I’ll answer it with a question.

Do you see any difference between A and B?

A. Completely innocent human being — no record of any crimes, ever — being put to death for being unwanted, with no appeals.

B. Human being guilty of capital murder beyond a reasonable doubt who survived 10+ years of appeals.

EMatters:  ‎”there is just a much pressure on women to have a baby they arent capable (or willing) to care for.”

I conceded that abortion situations are psychologically complex. In fact, if there weren’t some factors that made the situation psychologically complex I doubt anyone would consider an abortion. So that isn’t the question.

The question is whether feeling ill equipped to care for a baby is justification to kill her.

For every situation you come up with to rationalize abortion, I encourage you to ask the same question with a toddler plugged in the example. What if the toddler is causing economic / romance / career / education problems? Can you kill her for those reasons? Most people would say no.

Therefore, the only question is, “What is the unborn?” The answer is that they are human beings that are simply at a different stage of development than the toddler, but with the same right to life.

EMatters:  ‎”There are also women that are very much in control of their lives that find themselves in a motherly way who want to maintain the right to determine whether or not to have a child…..”

If I understood that correctly then you are making a factual error. The woman already has reproduced a human being, so she has a child. The question is about birth control (whether or not to have a child), it is about abortion (whether or not to kill the child).

“just the speed of the backlash against Komen today should show you that women will fight to preserve this right”

I don’t dispute that. The fact that the pro-aborts are venomous and radical in their pursuit of the legal right to kill innocent human beings is true, of course, but completely irrelevant to the question of whether it should be legal.

Other person:  venomous and radical? i only see doctors being killed and clinics bombed by one side, my friend.

EMatters:  So we agree that killing humans is bad. Your side kills 3,000+ daily with your apparent approval. My side vehemently denounces murders and violence against abortionists, which are extremely rare. And your media apparently forgot to tell you about the pro-lifer killed a couple years ago.

Other person:  abortion is legal in this land. has been since 1973. so you statement is wrong…..legally speaking

EMatters:  Huh? We are debating whether it should be legal. The fact that it is currently legal is irrelevant. It is a fact that abortion kills an innocent human being.

Other person:  we’re getting no where here. you may want to stick to the moral arguments, because currently you dont have a legal one. You can work you elect folks to overturn Roe v Wade to change that, but you arent ever going to convince citizens who believe in choice to change their minds…..and as of today, we dont HAVE to convince to come over to our side.

EMatters:  I’ve noticed that you change the subject every time I make a point. I’d appreciate if you’d close out on a topic or let me know if you see my point. Examples:

1. Do you see the difference between aborting a completely innocent child who had no appeals (20,000 per week in the U.S.) and executing a first-degree murderer who lost 10+ years of appeals?

2. Do you see how the fact that pro-abortionists are really committed to their cause has nothing to do with whether their cause is just? (Same thing for pro-lifers, btw)

3. The reasons you are giving for abortion (women wanting to control their lives, not equipped to care for kids, etc.) would justify killing infants and toddlers as well?

4. The existence of two sides to an issue doesn’t mean neither is correct.

Etc.

EMatters:  Your last comment made no sense. Saying I don’t have a legal argument is merely stating that abortion is legal. That proves nothing, because we both agree that it is legal. Do you see how anyone could make that claim as justification for keeping the status quo at all times? Using your logic, the pro-lifers were correct before Roe v Wade because the law said abortion was illegal. Therefore, they had no legal argument. Now does that make sense?

I’m arguing that abortion kills an innocent human being and that it should be illegal. Your response is that it is currently legal. But my argument assumes that already.

I hope you give this important issue more serious thought than you have to date.

Other person:  ‎1. We’ve executed innocent people. Even if they were possibly “bad” in some other way, they werent guilty of capital murder. One of these “mistakes” is one too many IMO.

EMatters:  I agree that we shouldn’t execute innocent people. You are the one whose views are in conflict. Using your logic, we make 3,000+ mistakes per day — but you are OK with those (that is, unless you are going to attempt to refute my scientific argument that the unborn are human beings).

And using your logic, capital punishment is legal, so you shouldn’t complain about it or expect it to be changed.

Other person:  ‎2. We ARENT pro abortionist. We are pro choice. Must pro choice women never make the decision to actually abort their babies. I never said my side is more JUST than yours…its just legally supported.

Other person:  what dont you get about my statement that I DONT THINK ABORTION ARE MURDER

Other person:  ‎3. That is a ridiculous statement. Since we believe people are given rights at birth, killing a toddler WOULD be murder

EMatters:  Right, but you aren’t offering any facts. Which do you deny, and why?

1. The unborn are human beings from fertilization. I’m claiming that as a scientific fact and offered references to 10+ embryology texts — not to mention common sense (what else would two human beings create?)

2. Abortion kills human beings.

So do you deny that the unborn are human beings or that abortion doesn’t kill something?

Other person:  why doesnt the supreme court deem it so then?

EMatters:  ‎”Since we believe people are given rights at birth, killing a toddler WOULD be murder”

You are once again begging the question and assuming what you should be proving. We are debating whether unborn human beings have rights, so you can’t just claim that they don’t have rights.

EMatters:  ‎”why doesnt the supreme court deem it so then?”

I’ve addressed that above (money & politics) and you’ve ignored it and once again changed the subject. I’ve answered your questions. Why do you ignore mine?

Other person:  i just answered them all. i believe rights to be granted at birth…which is the law

EMatters:  ‎”I never said my side is more JUST than yours…its just legally supported.”

And for the 3rd or 4th time I’m pointing out that you are making an illogical statement. Saying, “abortion is legal,” when I concede that and when we are debating whether it should be legal is meaningless.

Other person:  ok. so lets stick to the moral argument

EMatters:  ‎”i believe rights to be granted at birth…which is the law”

You stated your opinion without reasons and for the 5th time you’ve begged the question on the law issue. If that is the best you’ve got you may want to reconsider your position.

EMatters:  Yes, let’s stick to that.

EMatters:  Is it moral to kill human beings because they are unwanted?

Other person:  i dont think its moral to kill ANY human being.

Other person:  but we do for all sort of reasons

EMatters:  So you think abortions are immoral?

Other person:  in war, criminals. if they really scare us

Other person:  but we kill in war because it makes us more secure…but its not moral

Other person:  was the constitution moral? is everything in the Bible moral?

Other person:  eye for an eye or turn the other cheek? which is it?

Other person:  my point is moral is malleable. mostly shaped by the culture, the victors. Is abortion a good thing to be doing….absolutely not. but 35% of US children in poverty isnt very moral either. a large number of those babies would be in poverty

EMatters:  Interesting questions, but irrelevant to the debate. We are debating whether abortions are moral, and if so, should they be illegal (we probably agree that you don’t want gov’t micro-managing every activity of our lives and assessing whether they are moral or not).

I think we agree that war and capital punishment exist, and people can debate the “just cause” theory of war and the principle and practice of CP. But we can address abortion whether those exist or not or whether they are just or not.

I will answer a side note: Of course everything in the Bible isn’t moral. That’s the point! Even Homer Simpson quipped, “And talk about a preachy book! I mean, everyone’s a sinner . . . except this guy.”

So, I’ll ask again: Do you think abortions are immoral?

Other person:  why is every point i make irrelevant to you. i think all my points form why i think the way i think. just because you dont like the points dont make them irrelevant

EMatters:  Yeah, we agree that poverty is bad, too. But using your logic, it is legal and exists, so you definitely wouldn’t ask the gov’t to do anything about that.

And I realize that societies have different views at different times. Abortion was illegal, now it is legal. But it was either always moral or always immoral. Same thing with slavery and many other ills.

EMatters:  You are welcome to your opinions, but I am free to point out whether those have anything to do with whether abortion is moral or should be legal.

Back to the topic: Is abortion moral or not? You say it isn’t a good thing. Why not? I say it is a bad thing because an innocent human being is killed with no appeals. And if government exists to do anything, it exists to protect the lives of human beings. Therefore, it should be illegal.

Feel free to use facts and logic to point out why my premises or conclusions or false.

Other person:  its not moral

EMatters:  Thanks, that helps the dialogue. Why do you think it is immoral?

Other person:  i dont think its immoral.

Other person:  i think the mother has rights until the baby is born. period

EMatters:  I’m confused — did our comments get out of order? You said “its not moral” then you said “i don’t think its immoral” . . .

Other person:  i got ahead of myself. sorry….and we’l have to pick this up later

EMatters:  ‎”i think the mother has rights until the baby is born. period”

Yes, we’ve established that you hold that opinion. I’m asking you to be more specific. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the mother should have the right to kill an innocent human being.

EMatters:  No problem! I need to run as well. I appreciate the charitable dialogue. I know these things can get testy so it is nice to be able to discuss it with someone who is civil. I just think it is a very important topic.  Have a blessed day!

Update: Not surprisingly, he never came back.  Hopefully it planted a seed.

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64 thoughts on “A Facebook conversation on abortion”

  1. I’ve had debates about abortion like this before. The abortion advocate’s inability and/or unwillingness to answer direct questions is extremely frustrating. Sometimes it’s like talking to a brick wall, with the same (lack of) intelligence that implies.

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  2. We debated a fellow over on our blog sometime back who could not bring himself to confess that the unborn were human beings. He would refer to them as “fetus beings”, “zygote beings”, etc. but never as “human beings” – I kid you not!

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  3. This is why I rarely get into arguments with liberals anymore, or the people that I think are liberal. (I still tangle from time to time with people who insist they are “conservative.” I have arguments with secular conservatives that are nearly as vicious, being that most of them still tend to subscribe to the evolutionary world view, and also tend to be in the ‘live and let live’ camp on the social issues of our day…a position I have always rejected.)

    My reason has to do with the two sides being so far apart – morally, intellectually – and operating from two so completely different frames of reference, as to be irreconcilable. How are you supposed to find any agreement with someone who rejects such fundamental concepts as a fixed moral point of reference, the factoring-in of guilt vs innocence in deciding whether someone ought to live, etc etc. I will try to get my point across and then move on, especially when I’m arguing in front of of everyone I know on Facebook, using my real name.

    I think there’s even something in the Bible which rejects any notion of intellectual harmony or agreement between God’s people and the rest of the world.

    This person you’ve been crossing swords with is an example of what I am talking about. These people split hairs, move the goalposts, change the subject, and otherwise go around and around and around with you, never conceding an inch or attempting to find any common ground..when it is (or should be) apparently to any impartial observer that they’ve lost the debate early on. It is precisely this sort of behavior that arouses my complete disgust (and frankly, some personal dislike) with anyone I meet who seems to have a leftward persuasion. It goes beyond mere difference of opinion or interpretation of events – it’s to the point where I find the person’s opinion, behavior, and tactics so repulsive that I don’t even want to talk to them any more.

    Abortion is an extremely serious question, as it involves the taking of an innocent human life. This is far, far more serious than some debate we have with the Left over taxes or energy policy or whatnot.

    By all means, keep fighting the good fight, however.

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  4. Hey Matt: “How are you supposed to find any agreement with someone who rejects such fundamental concepts as a fixed moral point of reference, the factoring-in of guilt vs innocence in deciding whether someone ought to live, etc etc. ”

    I think, broadly speaking, you do so by pointing to the inherent absurdity (ie. logical slippery slope) of their point of view. I’m putting together a blog post at the moment to touch on some of this, ie. that a pro-abort view must give way to a society that promotes an inequality of rights between different classes of humans – which is reminiscent to me of good ol’ slavery where blacks were considered less human than whites. If you can get them to a point where they begin to see what a messed-up world their view point creates on a wider-scale, that’s a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

    It won’t often work but abortion is too important an issue not to champion against it.

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  5. When trying to point out the slippery slope of denying the humanity and/or right to life of the unborn, most abortion advocates / “pro-choice” folks will generally pooh-pooh it, even if you lay out the logic that “if the baby has no rights one minute prior to birth, why should it suddenly get rights one minute after birth? It is the same being; why does a few inches different placement make such a difference?” [This is because they place a huge emphasis on the baby being inside the woman’s body, so she can do what she wants to her body (and the other being inside her body, ahem), but once the baby is outside of her body, she doesn’t hold absolute power over it.]

    Being able to link to articles like this is helpful to get them to realize that I’m not just making things up, or making a fantastic “what if” story, but that this is already happening, with some people wanting to dehumanize born people, up to a certain age — and this is based on the “right” to abortion! I hope it makes them think.

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    1. Agreed! I also find it is useful to ask this question when they are playing the bodily autonomy and dependency arguments: “So you’re ok with killing the baby right up until the moment the umbilical cord is cut? Or how about if she is breast feeding?”

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  6. You know I find it funny that the people talking about abortion in this are ones who will never have to make that decision.
    As to the fact of the baby having rights after it is born or before, You need to realize the baby is not living on its own before birth it is a parasite on the mother. After it is born it is a living human being. Thus having rights. Before birth it is getting 100% of it nourishment, its oxygen, everything it needs to sustain life from the mother.
    I really don’t understand why you will not leave that decision to the mother, the one who has to give birth to the baby, the one that has to worry about all things around having.a child. What about the fact that some abortions are needed to save the life of the woman. Please women have fought hard to be able to make that decision. How about a baby made out of rape. Yes it is not the babies fault, but as a woman I could not love something that came out of a horrible situation like that. It would be a horinle reminder of what happened. Trust me I know about being a horrible reminder to my mother. I hot treated like a redheaded step child,.because I was a horrible reminder of what happened to her.
    So please just leave it alone.

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    1. Hi Danielle,

      Thanks for visiting and commenting.

      You know I find it funny that the people talking about abortion in this are ones who will never have to make that decision.

      I don’t follow. I’m not making the decision on killing people outside the womb, either, but that doesn’t mean I can’t talk about it.

      As to the fact of the baby having rights after it is born or before, You need to realize the baby is not living on its own before birth it is a parasite on the mother. After it is born it is a living human being.

      You are mistaken on when she is a living human being. It is a scientific fact that the unborn are unique, living human beings from conception. Please go here for lots of embryology textbook support for that claim — http://tinyurl.com/yfje8lq .

      Your “unborn humans are parasites” argument fails factually and logically on several levels and it puts you in the position of supporting the killing of fully delivered babies that are still connected to the mother via the umbilical cord (you might be in favor of that, but it isn’t the kind of thing that scores you points in front of undecided people). More here — http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/are-unborn-human-beings-parasites/

      Before birth it is getting 100% of it nourishment, its oxygen, everything it needs to sustain life from the mother.

      On your view the mother could have the child killed after the baby was born but before the umbilical cord was cut, or anytime during breastfeeding. Do you really believe that?

      I really don’t understand why you will not leave that decision to the mother, the one who has to give birth to the baby, the one that has to worry about all things around having.a child.

      Will you leave it to the mother if she wants to kill her infant or toddler?

      What about the fact that some abortions are needed to save the life of the woman.

      I’m glad to see we have some common ground! Those abortions, while extremely rare, are consistent with the pro-life ethic and not opposed by any pro-lifers I know.

      Please women have fought hard to be able to make that decision.

      How hard someone fights to be able to kill her unborn child is irrelevant to whether it is moral.

      How about a baby made out of rape. Yes it is not the babies fault, but as a woman I could not love something that came out of a horrible situation like that. It would be a horinle reminder of what happened. Trust me I know about being a horrible reminder to my mother. I hot treated like a redheaded step child,.because I was a horrible reminder of what happened to her.
      So please just leave it alone.

      I’m glad we agree that it isn’t the baby’s fault. I’d entertain capital punishment for the rapist, but not the child.

      If you were mistreated by your mother because you were the product of a rape then I’m very, very sorry to hear that. But that doesn’t diminish your humanity or value in any way, and would not have justified your destruction. God did not make a mistake with you. You have eternal value because you were created in his image. If you haven’t repented and trusted in Jesus for your salvation I encourage you to learn as much as you can about him.

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    2. Danielle: “but as a woman I could not love something that came out of a horrible situation like that.”

      Yes, you can – it’s possible. And I know because my mother was able to love me despite what happened to her.

      And despite what you may have been told during your childhood, you never were a parasite and are entitled to equal dignity as a human being for the mere fact that you are human and made in the image of God.

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    3. There are at least as many women who are against abortion as there are men; open your eyes and you will see them.

      Also, if a woman feels like she cannot love her child, then she should give her child up to someone who *can* love it. The fact that she cannot love a child because of how it was conceived does not say anything about the lovableness of the child, but either speaks of a problem on the mother’s part (usually selfishness, possibly also mental illness) or, yes, of the act itself that resulted in the child’s conception.

      She was not forced to parent you; if she could not rise above the circumstances that created you, and treat you with the love, care, and compassion that you merited, she should have given you up for adoption to one of the many loving couples that were waiting to adopt. Regardless of the circumstances of your conception, you have inherent value, and should have been treated that way; that you weren’t speaks more about her problems than you being a problem.

      However, not all rape victims hate their child; there are not only many women who are raising their rapist’s child because it is also their own child, but there are many more who have considered their decision to carry the baby to term (and either parent or give the child up for adoption) as a triumph of love over the hatred shown by the rapist. Then there are many women who aborted their child and the rapist’s child, who go on to wish they hadn’t. Note that this woman felt like she hated her child and couldn’t imagine letting her rapist’s child live nor carry that baby to term, yet she came to regret the permanent decision over a temporary feeling.

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  7. I am only meaning that most of the people commenting are male and thus can never become pregnant. So then will never have to make that decision.
    Plus I am not talking about a baby that is walking, talking. I am talking about a fetus not a baby.
    I am a nursing student, so I do know about the development of a fetus. The fetus can not live outside the mother without 100% medical intervention until 5-6 mths gestation. I would call that not a living human being yet. Plus at birth a baby must inhale oxygen so that the patent ductus arteriosus closes and the baby goes from fetal circulation to Postnatal circulation. Look at the pictures of a fetal heart and circulation system. The umbilical cord attaches to the heart so bypass the lungs so they do not have to inhale oxygen to keep the fetus alive.
    Now I am against a woman using abortion as Birth Control. I also am against 3 trimester abortion. BUT I do believe it is up to the women and possible the father to make the decision as to what they are going to do. Granted there is adoption, but that is part of the decision process. So I am not a huge heartless person. I knew I didn’t want children a long time ago when I was 19yrs old. So I made the decision to go in and get fixed right away.
    I spent a lot of time at my Grandparents house and she was a very Hard spoken Christian woman. So I spent a lot of time in church, I do believe in Christ. But I still believe it is a woman right to choice decision. I just don’t like the fact that other people are trying to make the decision for woman. Or take the decision away from the woman.

    Sorry I have to finish homework so I am cutting this short. I am not fully finished with the response. Plus I like that fact this is kept clean and a person is not chastised by their belief. So I did want to Thank you for that.
    Danielle

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    1. Out of interest, why do you support abortion before the 3rd trimester but not after? What is the significant factor for drawing this line? And are the unborn human beings – on your view – only from the beginning of the 3rd trimester?

      (And as aside, have you ever thought that making abortion the ultimate decision of the mother effectively relegates all males to the role of sperm donors, and nothing more than a sperm donor?)

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      1. I did say that the decision is to be made by mother and some fathers. The ones that are around with the mother still. I did not say that all men are sperm donors. Some are yes. They have sex but then when the woman is pregnant, they are “are you sure its mine” blab blab blab.
        I know at that point the baby can live outside the mother. Also that point the baby has a sense of feeling and other human actions. Sucks its thumb, already has a prominent hand left or right. Eyes are opening and closing, sleeps, dreams. I just feel up to the point the baby can live outside the mother without 100% medical intervention. I don’t know I could be wrong. I can admitted when I am wrong. I just believe what I believe.

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      2. Interesting that you’re willing to concede all of that, and still maintain that a woman is within her rights to terminate a human lifeform that is capable of all those things.

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      3. The baby or fetus is not able to do all those things until around the 3rd trimester. That is why i feel that abortion is wrong after that point. It feels like you are trying to take my words out of context. I wrote that in the 1st response, That a baby does those things in the 3rd trimester. So that is why i feel that 3rd term abortions are wrong.

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      4. So, is it the sucking of the thumb that makes it human, or merely the fact that he or she can live without/outside of his or her mother?

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      5. The baby or fetus is not able to do all those things until around the 3rd trimester.

        Deciding whether human beings can be destroyed or not based on their capabilities is a bad idea.

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    2. I am only meaning that most of the people commenting are male and thus can never become pregnant. So then will never have to make that decision.

      Why does being unable to bear a child have any bearing whatever on the morality of abortion? By your logic, infertile women also should have no opinion.


      Plus I am not talking about a baby that is walking, talking. I am talking about a fetus not a baby.fetus not a baby.

      I think Neil has demonstrated by now that a fetus is indeed a baby.


      I am a nursing student, so I do know about the development of a fetus. The fetus can not live outside the mother without 100% medical intervention until 5-6 mths gestation. I would call that not a living human being yet.

      I do not care what *you* would call it; the science on this is what it is. The fetus is a living, independent human being from the very moment of conception. Why do you get to decide to kill it just because it can’t survive outside of the womb yet? Besides, by your own admission, it soon BECOMES a living being with rights of its own.


      Plus at birth a baby must inhale oxygen so that the patent ductus arteriosus closes and the baby goes from fetal circulation to Postnatal circulation. Look at the pictures of a fetal heart and circulation system. The umbilical cord attaches to the heart so bypass the lungs so they do not have to inhale oxygen to keep the fetus alive.

      None of which has any bearing at all on the point under discussion.


      Now I am against a woman using abortion as Birth Control. I also am against 3 trimester abortion.

      Progress, I suppose.


      BUT I do believe it is up to the women and possible the father to make the decision as to what they are going to do.

      Oh, so you’re willing to grant *some* of the fathers the right to some say in what happens to THEIR child? That’s real big of you. It is every bit his as it is hers, and pointing out that she’s physically carrying the fetus is nothing but a cop-out.

      Personally, I would argue that abortion ought to be a capital crime. It’s a premeditated act of taking a human life w/o a mortal threat to one’s own life. That’s the textbook definition of murder, isn’t it? Civilizations have been putting people to death for premeditated murder for a long, long time.

      So I made the decision to go in and get fixed right away.

      “Got fixed?” Are you a woman or a Labrador retriever?


      I spent a lot of time at my Grandparents house and she was a very Hard spoken Christian woman. So I spent a lot of time in church, I do believe in Christ.

      Being raised in a Christian home and going to church, makes you a Christian like going to McDonald’s makes you a hamburger. Jesus pointed out that we shall recognize believers by the fruit they bear, not what they purport to believe.


      But I still believe it is a woman right to choice decision. I just don’t like the fact that other people are trying to make the decision for woman. Or take the decision away from the woman.

      I believe it should be taken away from the woman and put back in the hands of society, where it belongs. Society has a vested interest in stopping certain acts for moral reasons. It stopped being up to the woman at the moment that the zygote formed inside her body – from that moment on, we’re talking about a separate human being, not a “parasite” or any of the other euphemisms you’ve used. It is a child, not a “choice.”

      A woman does have a “choice” of a different kind, however – to control herself and not to have sex in the first place if she isn’t prepared to deal appropriately with the consequences. A rape victim, meanwhile, is just that – a victim. That still doesn’t give her the right to execute her child.

      You can go around and around about this and rationalize it all you like. It’s not going to change the immutable facts of the situation.

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  8. I agree, We can go around and around. It doesn’t change your side either does it. That is why this country is so wonderful. You have the right to believe what you believe and I have the right to believe what I believe. Many people died for that right.
    We can’t say with 100% what will happen in the future and who is right.
    I also wonder you state That is science but my guess is you do not believe in all science. Because if you did, then you can see the facts that all living things evolved from the tinny life forms that crawled out of the primordial soup. The evolution of man from apes. there is science behind that to point out that it is possible. I believe there is more out there then just evolution. I do believe in a God. Also wonderful thing…..we as people have the right to believe in any God we choose to.
    I have never once said I was right….I have always stated “This is what I believe”. Who am I to say I am right or You are right.
    Also I do want to ask something and I truly am asking not trying to be snippy about this. If you believe abortion is wrong and Killing a human being is wrong then were do you stand on capital punishment and the death penalty? I honestly thought that if you were against killing a fetus in an abortion you should also be against the Death Penalty.

    Your analogy are comparing apple to cows, two completely different things. When I say that I grew up around the bible and its teachings, I am merely saying I do have an understanding and a knowledge of God and the church. If you read the 1st response to my first post the responder had put that I was welcome and should get to know the Lord. That is all I was responding too. So if you want to continue this conversation I would appreciate the respect of reading the entire text and not take it out of context. I respect what you believe and i do not belittle you for having those beliefs. I do not tell you that what you believe is wrong. I am merely stating an opposing point. So I really would like the same respect.
    Also whether it be a Labrador retriever, cat, ferret, monkey, squirrel, human…….Same medical procedure.
    Danielle

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    1. Because if you did, then you can see the facts that all living things evolved from the tinny life forms that crawled out of the primordial soup. The evolution of man from apes.

      That’s another scientific fact you are wrong about. And the Darwinian lie isn’t that we evolved from apes but that we had a common ancestor. There is no evidence for the origin of life / primordial soup nonsense. That is just a fantasy of materialists.

      If you believe abortion is wrong and Killing a human being is wrong then were do you stand on capital punishment and the death penalty?

      Can you see the difference between A and B?

      A. Innocent human being crushed and dismembered without anesthetic because she is unwanted.

      B. Convicted rapist & murderer who survived 10+ years of appeals put to death in the most painless way possible.

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      1. Words taken out of context again. I said that if you are going to talk about science then you have to concede there are other scientific facts out there that can speak to other things out there. Just because we come from a single common ancestor. That doesn’t mean that the common ancestor “EVE” (I believe is what they called her and she is from Africa.) That Eve wasn’t evolution. Do you have all those missing answers? All I can say is what I believe. MY RIGHT. Like I said before I can’t say I am right nor can you. We do not have all of the scientific answers to show every answer to every question or debate. No one has given me any hard facts to show me that what I believe is wrong. I get responded back with comparisons that don’t make much sense, because two completely different things are being compared. I also get chastised for believing what I do. I do not tell you that your belief is wrong. I just give an opposing side to it.
        Women have gotten the raw end of the deal for so long. We are held to a double standard in so many ways. This is another reason why i feel it is the women right to make that decision, and the mans if he is still by the woman.
        How do you feel about the people that stand out front of the clinics during rush hour traffic and hold up huge posters of the aborted baby for all to see. I really bet that if I stood out in front of the sex shop holding huge nude pictures, these same people who do that would have a huge problem with that. To me it is about the same thing. It is something that people who do not want to see that or want their kids to see that should not be forced to. What about the women who get berated and called a slut and a whore who go into a clinic that give abortions. Those people who stand outside have no idea what that girl is going in for. Clinics that do abortions are also the same clinics where you can go to get a yearly exam, or to get prenatal care. How do you feel about those people. **(WHEN I SAY THOSE PEOPLE, PLEASE DON’T TAKE IT WRONG)**.
        Like I said before maybe I am wrong about this. I do know that my only motherly instinct is to animals for some reason. I really have my own ideas as to why that is. I didn’t want kids because of that fact and also I really didn’t want to become my mother. It has taken several years of therapy for me to be able to love myself enough to live happily everyday. When you are growing up and all you hear everyday how much you were not wanted and how much of a screw up you are and are going to become. So honestly maybe that is were I get my feelings and beliefs from. Because I never had the mother who was supportive and caring and understandable. So maybe that is why I feel the way I do. Who Knows, all I do know is I do not have all the answers. I really don’t know who else does. With the hard facts and evidence to back it up.
        Danielle

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      2. You have to deliberately ignored the scientific evidence I provided: 10 embryology textbook quotes and more. The science could not be more clear. You choose to ignore it.

        It is sad that your issues with your mother are causing you to take the wrong side of the greatest moral issue of our time.

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      3. i have not deliberately ignored the readings i am still reading it. There is alot there to read cause i am have been looking up the books and reading them through. I have homework and a lot of reading to do for school so, I have been taking breaks. Thank you for the conversation. I am still really trying to decide what i truly believe. Every church I have gone to is always all fire and brimstone and repent you are all going to hell. I don’t like that, it makes my heart on soul hurt. Why cant the church be more on the positive side of the believe then on the negative. i am not saying it all has to be 100% positive but does it all have to be 100% negative, If you have any Ideas on the right church for me then I would really appreciate a point in the right direction. I grew up in all negative….you are going to hell and you are a horrible person, so it just make me feel like I am right back there. Please that would be much appreciated.
        Thank you,
        Danielle

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      4. I’m genuinely sorry to hear you’ve had such a negative experience with church. I won’t speak for the others on this, but my opinion is that the clergy should speak to people as Jesus did.

        God’s love and God’s judgment are two sides of the same coin. There’s forgiveness and acceptance for those who are willing to repent and obey Him; there’s judgement and damnation for those who do not. A lot of nonbelievers (and sadly, many Christians) seem to be under the impression that Christ’s message is all sweetness and light…and that any missionary/pastor/lay Christian who doesn’t stress that part enough is seen to be a failure at being “loving.” Jesus said a lot of things that wouldn’t be seen as such by 21st-century, post-modern, “anything goes” standards.

        It is important to tell people that God loves them; it is equally important to tell them God wants them to approach Him as they are (and let Him worry about fixing the bad stuff later on), and also important to add a final warning – that an eternal destruction awaits those who fail to do so. Some will accept this message in its entirety; many will not. Of that latter category, many want to practice what I would call “salad bar Christianity,” where one picks and chooses what parts of Jesus’ teachings to accept, and which really is not Christianity at all but a counterfeit religion.

        My church has a slogan: “We major in Love, Acceptance, and Forgiveness.” It operates ministries for (among other things) people who want to get clean from alcohol and drugs, anger issues, etc. Our pastor is great at explaining the things I’ve been telling you in this post. He seems to think it is important to strike a balance, being careful to put BOTH sides of God’s personality on display.

        Being that you live in Texas – what might be called the Deep South, the Bible Belt, etc – it’s understandable, and regrettable, that you’ve run into a fair amount of the fire-and-brimstone teaching which is a hallmark of conservative churches. Conversely, many liberal churches swing too far in the other direction…leaving the listener with the impression that God loves them unconditionally, but requires nothing of them. God loving people is only the first step; the second is coming into relationship with Him and accepting Christs’ perfect sacrifice for their lives; the third, allowing Him to transform them, thus altering sinful behaviors and attitudes. (Say, for example, being “pro-choice” on abortion when it’s abundantly clear that God is pro-life). Though Christians vary greatly in the amount of spiritual maturity they attain, it is certainly true that none of them are complete in their growth and development while still alive in this life.

        Hope this helps you. I encourage you to continue your search for a church home that allows you to feel like you belong there.

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  9. I hope Danielle is never a nurse at any hospital/clinic I ever have to go to. If she is that casual about “fetuses” that she cannot see the utter immorality in killing one at any stage, I pray I’ll never fall under her “tender care”. She’ll off me as quick as any “fetus”.

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    1. I know. She strikes me as a kind and genuinely well-intentioned person; just so completely marinated in the secular worldview (despite her apparent claims at being a Christian) that it’s a little frightening.

      Nice work on your responses to her, Neil.

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    2. This reply is for Jim W. REALLY REALLY, I really hope you never come to a clinic or hospial either. I work at either. I have not taken any personal attack on anybody. To come out and say I would off you the 1st chance I get is just a notch in the belt that speaks more about your personality then mine. I have never ever.wished harm on any person. Plus I do not perform the Abortion and honestly don’t think I ever could. Like I said I may be.wrong in what I BELIEVE, but it is just that. What I believe. I do hope you have every wonderful joy in the world that you want. I am a very caring and thoughtful person. The fact that you can judge me, when you have never even met me is just completely terrible. Please have a wonderful rest of the week and weekend. Thank you
      Danielle
      BTW I live and will be working in Dallas TX

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      1. I guess where the rest of us are getting hung-up, is where you A) draw arbitrary lines on what is “human” and what is not, and B) seem to be OK with killing something that (to you) is not human, but will be at a later point, by your own admission. It seems inconsistent to me, at best.

        Belief is great; we’ve attempted to show you some good reasons why those beliefs are mistaken. You won’t listen. Do you know how frustrating that is?

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      2. Too bad, Danielle, you’ve proven that you have no moral standard and no true compassion. If you are unwilling to admit that “a fetus” at any stage is a human being and deserves your love and care, why in the world would I believe that you would provide me with compassion and care if I came in to your hospital? If I came in after a car accident, brain dead (for example) why wouldn’t you just pull the plug? You have no reason not to. You have proved this by your thoughtless comments in all your above posts.

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      3. I would not be able to make that decision. That decision is up to you if you have advanced directive. Or up to your family if you do not. The decision to.pull the plug as you elequently put it, is not a decision to be taken lightly. That is also I would hope the same with a woman considering an abortion. I have admitted I may be wrong in what I believe. I do not say that I can say with 100% certainty that I am right in what I believe. The personal attack on my character does not even help your case one bit. I am sorry that you feel that you have to verbally attack me, instead of trying to help me change my mind and give me more of a Religious compass that will lead me to the truth. Like the conversations between Matt and myself. The Replies you have given just make me feel that you would sooner chastise someone for the belief then help them find the truth. That is all I am trying to do, is find my true place in the light of God, I have been reading and doing the study that has been recommended to me. If I am wrong I will be the first person to stand up and admit I am. Right now I am on the fence trying find the answers. I am Avery compassionate person. I don’t kill the little bugs that make their way into my home. I don’t like killing anything. I could never have an abortion myself. That is something I have known for a long time. I have also said that maybe the reason I feel that it should be up to the mother, is because I didn’t get any human maternal instincts from my mother. Maybe there is a disconnect in my brain that makes me to scared or unsure that I could ever treat a child I gave birth to right. I do know I had a huge fear of becoming my mother with my own children. That is why I decided so young that I probably would not make a good mother, and went in and had a Tubal Libation. I still have a fear of becoming her. I would never want any child to feel the way I did growing up. Growing up I did wish my mother would not have had me. Honestly I am
        not trying to sound mean or rude about that. I really did feel that way. My first suicide attempt was when I was 10 yrs old. I have always taken my anger of someone or something out on myself. I was told I was garbage, waste of human space, not worth any love or compassion. So that is how I treated myself. I have really started to think that their is a connection in what I believe because of how I felt growing up. Maybe I think that if a baby is so unwanted,and the mother refuses adoption then it would be better to be terminated then grow up the way I did. All I am doing.is trying to figure it out. I am caring and compassionate. I have always gone out of my way to make someone feel at home or needed or cared for even
        at the risk of draining myself. So I really hope you see it really
        hurts me when attack me on a personal level. I have never attacked anybody for what.they felt was right or what.they may believe even if it goes against my believe system.

        that way. My first suicide a

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      4. Danielle,

        May I suggest a thought-provoking book for you? One about whether God exists and what is the true faith? It is based on logic and philosophy, plus a study of all the surrounding issues as relating to the Bible’s veracity, etc. Fairly easy reading. I believe if you read the book from beginning to end you will have no other conclusion to reach than that the Christian faith is the only true religious belief system. It’s titled, “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist,” by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek.

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      5. That’s an excellent book! I read it about seven years ago and found it to be bulletproof. Everyone who’s got fundamental questions about God’s existence should read it.

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      6. If Where can I get this book. Would it be at Barnes and noble or only in a Christian bookstore. Or do they have it on the kindle? I will look tor the book and pick it up. If you think of.any other books that might help me with my search for my place in faith and the Lord. That would be great. Thank you
        Danielle

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      7. I don’t know if Barnes & Noble has it. It’s usually in the Family Christian stores, and I have seen it in other Christian book stores. If nothing else, I know you can get it on Amazon.

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      8. Excellent thanks I will find a book shore near me and get it. Thank you. If you have any more books or any other places that might help aid me in me in my search. Please let me know.
        Danielle

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      9. Danielle, I am really not trying to hurt your feelings or make you feel bad. But, you have got to see that there is no difference between killing a baby at whatever stage it may be at, and killing an adult that may be severely injured from an accident. Neither one can care for themselves, both present an incredible burden on both any relatives and the medical system, and neither one can be counted on to ever become any better.
        You believe you are compassionate, but if you can’t see how morally bankrupt your position is, you are an obvious product of the equally bankrupt and morally vacuous modern education system.
        Just because you can’t kill bugs means nothing. That just goes to even further prove that you have no moral foundation on which to base anything. And since you are planning to be a nurse and responsible for human life-at every stage- you better figure out your moral position, or find another line of work.
        I believe that Canada is planning to allow nurses to perform abortions in the near future. Other countries already do. How long can you remain ambiguous?

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      10. Like I said before I wouldn’t perform an abortion nor could I could I let me performed on me. I just said that is a decision that is made by the individual.
        Of I am abigguous it is because I do not have all the answers. I am just trying to figure them out. The person who helped me find my way through religion and helped me to see any error in my beliefs died. She was my moral compass. When she past away the debate on abortion I was to young to know about and understand. I have never said in any straight forward word for word that I was all for 100% or 75% or even 50% that I was for abortion. I said I think there should be some choice. But since I have been talking to Matt and Kathy they have made excellent points to the contrary of what I was believing. I am sorry but you have done nothing but verbally chastise me for what I was believing. You have nothing.more then hurtfull comments you have not brought forth any evidence or thought behind your view on this issue. I want to tell you that how you approach this discussion makes me feel like you would rather verbally aggressively just spit out nasty comments then to sincerely and passionately change the mind and opinion of the person making that choice. So I have to say I am sorry but you have.done nothing.to aid in the fact I have been looking at the error in my thoughts and beliefs on that decision. I would almost say you could ne the person that would push someone back to their original views on abortion if they were for it and were thinking that maybe they were wrong.in their choices. I just would like you to step back and look at how you approach the situation. Mayne be a little more introspective. I am and that has allowed me not to blow up and become so aggressive when someone doesn’t agree
        with me.
        I hope you and your family have a wonderful weekend.

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  10. I am willing to change my believe if I was to find the right piece of information or the right person gave me the point to the contrary. I have not found anybody who will change my mind without the personal attacks and the right info. Like I said before maybe my view have.something to do with my upbringing. I don’t know, I am trying to figure it out. Everybody I have met in my entire life.thinks I am one of the most dating people that is why I am going to nursing. I was told by so many that this was my calling. Plus I never said outright I am a Christian I said I ass partly raised around Christians, the Bible,the Lord. I got completely different views on things growing up. My grandmother was the loving one who was the Christian. My mother was the frightening one with the views the anyone who believed in God, The Lord, The Bible were crazy good for nothing people. That really messes with your believe system your parents are the ones who are supposed to get you ready for adulthood. They are supposed to give you a strong belief system. So put all that together and it really messes a kid up. So I am really.just trying.to understand what I believe. When you are not sure what.you believe, it is a really hard life and road. Trust me I have.all the scars to prove it. It has taken many many many Years of therapy for me to finally want to live, and want to have a normal life. I was convinced as a child teenager and young adult, that the world and everybody in it would be better off if I wasn’t here. So you have those views wand you tell me you wouldn’t be a little confused. I am just trying to figure it out. I am beginning to feel this is not the place for me to do that.
    So I honestly pray you all have a wonderful life with all the love and riches of a wonderful family and friends. Also with everything you could ever want in it. I hope everyone Has a wonderful week and weekend.
    Love,
    Danielle B.

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    1. “I am willing to change my believe if I was to find the right piece of information or the right person gave me the point to the contrary.”

      Such as?

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      1. Matt, I really don’t know. I have questions as to why do we not have memories of being an infant, baby, newborn, and being in the womb. When is it the baby has a soul. It that something that come at the point of conception, for sure 100% or does it come when the babies brain is formed or is it when we can remember things. I know to you these may seem like stupid questions. I really am not sure. Do we really have souls or is it just the brain waves that make us think we have a soul. I know it is frustrating. They may be stupid questions to you. I really do have these questions. I believe there is something greater then us all out there, what is it. This religions says this and that religion says that. And if you don’t believe this you will go to hell and if you believe that you will go to hell. I don’t want to go to hell. So who and what do I believe. I have been trying(in what little spare time i have) to study religion, and what I should believe. It is not all wrapped around abortion. I have such a huge list of questions. What to believe……with this discussion board I am wrong I guess. I don’t know. Why is church Fire and Brimstone….repent….your going to hell anyway. Where can i find a church were i am not an evil person already. I want a church were they side on the positive side of religion. i have spent my life 2nd 3rd and 4th guessing what I believe, what i feel, and how I see the world. So you see i am just trying to figure out my way through this maze to the happy fulfilled end that everyone wants. Have you ever feared that you believe in the Lord and you die and there is nothing, no God just nothing. Maybe my fear is that I might feel as though I have wasted my life believing in something that isn’t out there. These are are the thoughts that keep me up at night. I wonder all about this stuff. My mind literally doesn’t shut off. So I am trying to find the answers. The right feel you know the feeling you belong and everything is just right. I haven’t found that.

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      2. Those are all perfectly valid questions. Neil recently pointed me toward an outstanding resource (www.carm.org) when I had some questions myself about whether or not the Bible is missing any books. (I’d seen a TV program which suggested that the early church fathers had intentionally hidden something or other from us, that God had intended for people to hear.) I am sure Neil can point you to some resources which could provide some valuable insight into helping you find some answers.

        If you visit the site (and I really recommend it), I’d like to point your attention toward the buttons on the left side of the page. There are many articles which address some of the issues you have raised.

        If you have not already done so, I also suggest you read the post I wrote in response to you, the one about teaching God’s judgment vs teaching God’s love. The bottom line is that both are important and both should be taught about.

        Again, thats http://www.carm.org. Happy reading, and know that God loves you. I pray that you will find the clarity and understanding you seek. Based on your posts, I’m convinced that while you are passionate, you are also sincere about wanting to find understanding. If that’s really the case, I believe God will nudge you toward the truth. I am confident that everyone on this thread will pray for you.

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      3. One other quick thing I wanted to address…

        “Have you ever feared that you believe in the Lord and you die and there is nothing, no God just nothing. Maybe my fear is that I might feel as though I have wasted my life believing in something that isn’t out there.”

        I saw a bumper sticker once which read, “If you’re living as if there is no God…YOU’D BETTER BE RIGHT!”

        When I was a small boy, I asked my dad this question. His response was simple – if it turns out that the atheists were correct all along, and there’s nothing waiting for us on the other side except a cold, empty void (or worse, if we “picked the wrong religion” and wound up in hell anyway)…that we would not have lost anything. He said that we would have eventually ended up in the same eternal destination by believing (and behaving), in this life, as the atheists do or as the adherents of false religions do.

        But, he added….if it turns out we’re right to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior…and those other people were wrong when they mocked Him?

        They’re going to be in a LOT of trouble.

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      4. Thank you Matt I will look that up. Thank you for understanding me. I really am honestly seeking the answers and clarity. I am seeking something I can truly believe in. I am sure you know what feeling I am talking about, that warm feeling where you know with your entire heart and soul that you belong. Where you feel like you are home. I have been searching for that since I realized I am worth being loved and worth being here on earth.
        Thank you, Matt
        Danielle

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      5. Matt that is such a great answer. So as long as it make you happy and you have faith in something then you haven’t wasted your life. You have just made it richer. If there is a all mighty being out there then you are already in the best.place you can be. Right. I hope I read that correctly, at least that is what I got out of that. If I am wrong on this please tell me what was ment.
        Danielle

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      6. ” Where can i find a church were i am not an evil person already. I want a church were they side on the positive side of religion.”

        Re. your first question: If a church teaches that you aren’t evil then it isn’t a real church. Real churches teach the negative and the positive: You are a sinner whose deserved destination is Hell, but there is a huge positive side: Jesus died for your sins and rose again. Truly trust in him and your sins are forgiven, his righteousness is imputed to you and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

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      7. Pro-life atheists start with the premise that human life should be protected, and that the unborn are most certainly human, therefore the unborn should be protected — no soul required.

        When you start requiring any proof from the unborn that they are human and therefore worth saving, you start on a slippery slope. For example, you want to know if the unborn have souls, and if so when? That is ultimately impossible to know or prove, and there are people who do not believe in souls at all, so they would then feel free to kill any human, just like any animal, or like bathroom mold. Then you bring in what you believe to be more or less tangible evidences of having a soul — in this case, forming memories, or having brain waves. The slippery slope comes in, not only in your own statement that you question why babies and young children don’t have memories, so by your own statement, you could just as easily extend the time of “abortion” to the age of 3 y/o, since most people don’t have memories of the time before that age. You could also kill amnesiacs. These are obviously people and human beings by your definition, but by your criteria, they should be free game. Slippery slope. [And to clarify, I *don’t* think that you think that; I’m just showing you the logic of this belief. I believe you to be a compassionate and caring person; you seem really nice, especially when whats-his-name was attacking you. I apologize on his behalf, and agree with you that his attitude is not beneficial.]

        Having brain waves or not may seem like a valid cut-off point, but there is a huge problem: just because we may be not be able to detect something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Radio waves, ultrasound, ultraviolet light, etc., nor detected them, are all fairly recent discoveries, yet our ability to detect these things did not make them be — they were there, whether we detected them or not — so placing the burden of proof on the fetus to provide us with something that we can detect, before we allow them to be human, may be placing the bar too high. Plus, there have been people with no detectable brain waves who were nearly cut off from life support, that ended up recovering. One young man (4-wheeler accident) actually remembers the doctor declaring him brain-dead! He had no detectable brain waves, yet he was obviously alive and even making memories, while his doctor declared him legally dead, with no brain waves, and unable to recover. Obviously, there was a problem with the detection equipment (i.e., there *were* brain waves, but just not detectable by machines), or else with the premise that “no brain waves” = “not alive”.

        There are some people who are never going to meet a specific criterion, or are going to lose that criterion at some point in their life. No matter what criterion you pick, I can probably point you to somebody who doesn’t meet it, yet you still believe that person to be human.

        But back to the question of the fetus having to prove itself to be human enough to live — not only is it fairly arbitrary (my kids never sucked their thumbs after birth — didn’t make ’em not human!), but it puts the person in the unenviable position of being “guilty until proven innocent”, and what if the person can’t prove his innocence, even though he is indeed innocent? It is much easier — *very* easy — as easy as saying words — to *accuse* a person of a crime, than to *prove* guilt; this is why the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Just from a logical and/or legal standpoint, you should require the accuser to prove that the unborn child is not a human, and should not be protected, rather than assume that as a fact and then require others to prove the reverse.

        Back to the “making memories” bit, though — there is evidence and studies which show that babies at birth remember things that they heard and tasted before birth. Amniotic fluid has a taste to it, and it varies based on what the mother eats; it also has a taste of the mother, which enables the baby to determine his own mother at birth. One study showed that babies will turn their heads towards a pad soaked with their mother’s breastmilk, but not towards another pad. Babies show a preference for the foods that their mothers ate during pregnancy, when introduced to them after birth. Babies also cry in different patterns or intonations, based on the mother tongue — as if in imitation of the patterns of intonation of the mother’s language that they heard and obviously remembered before birth. And after birth, they show a preference for songs played to them in utero repeatedly. Plus, unsurprisingly, they recognize and prefer their mother’s voice to any other, and recognize other people whose voices they heard a lot while in utero (father, siblings, etc.).

        Babies obviously have and make lots and lots of memories, which is evidenced by their ability to learn language through repetition, learning that when they let go of objects, the objects fall to the ground, the meaning of the word “no”, that they don’t like green vegetables, etc. Even if these are lost or overwritten by later events, it doesn’t mean they aren’t making memories for the time.

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      8. Kathry thank you these are great points I have never considered. Just to say again though, all these questions I have are not all tied into the abortion issue for me. These are questions that really do keep me up at night. Things I wonder about. I lost my moral navigational tool (my grandmother) sorry it is a little inside joke. I always called her my moral compass. When I was unsure about something or if I felt like my footing was not solid so to speak. I could always go to her. She always had a verse or the right words so I could understand were I should stand. So with her gone I have all these questions and no one to turn to. The churches I have attended.her in Texas are the pastor who screams fire and brimstone. I know that church os not all positive glory and love and sunshine, but it doesn’t have to be negative all the.time either, Right? I would.like to say that I have been reconsidering my point on abortion. I am on the fence climbing over. I guess I really should have.known it was wrong when I really hate that word. It is such a nasty word. I have always disliked saying it. There are many other words also.
        Like I asked of Matt and everyone else, if you know of a church or books or anything that can help me then please, I am open for feedback or a point in the right direction.
        The points you made are really great ones. Some are things I did not know. I appreciate that we can talk back and forth. About an issue that is very sensitive and have a dignified discussion about this issue. So I really wanted to say Thank you. If you have any suggestion for me to find a place were I fit in and feel at home, please don’t hesitate to let me know. I don’t know if you can see my email address but if you cant I will give.it to you and Matt can have it also (danielle_breiner@Yahoo.com and my facebook is under my name Danielle J Breiner, you can also contact me their too.
        Kathy,Thank you and Have a wonderful weekend
        Danielle

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      9. Danielle, it sounds like you need some discipling and Bible study. Your grandmother had the ability she had, not because she was zapped with God’s “magic wand” and the Bible magically instilled itself into her brain; rather, she probably read and studied it a good deal, memorizing it, so that when you came to her with a question, she had the answer. You can do the same thing.

        It would be good for you to find a church where you can learn and study, though of course, you can learn and study on your own. I’ll friend you on f/b, so if you have any particular questions, we can talk there. Or here if you prefer. Check out Tony Evans [https://www.facebook.com/pastortonyevans] who is in Dallas; I’ve listened to and read some of his stuff and believe him to be a good teacher (and it sounds like you need a *teacher* and not just a *preacher*), though honestly I haven’t read enough to *really* recommend him on every point. I hope that his church, or some other church, will be what you need.

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  11. Sorry Kindle fire is still learning, Auto correct. You know. “I am the most caring person” I was told that nursing was my calling. I really hope you can read what i wrote when the kindle auto corrected things.

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      1. What is the right Bible? When looking I find quite an array of different types. The one I believe is right that I have is the new testiment King James version. The only problem with it is that the interpretation is left up to the people who read it. I need one that has the original text and the interperation.

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      2. The KJV is probably said to be the most popular one, read and loved by people around the world for at least four hundred years. Many of the more conservative Protestant denominations (including Pentacostals) and Mormons still use it today. I talked to a woman a number of years ago, who said that having used it as a child makes it easier to read Shakespeare as an adult…

        I don’t care for the King James Version (or its companion the “new” King James Version) as much, personally, as I find its use of anachronistic terms (“thee,” “thou,” “hast”) difficult to read and understand. There are also a few minor issues with the translation (for example, one of the Ten Commandments is translated as “thou shalt not kill” when God really meant “thou shalt not MURDER,” and this really is sort of obvious when you think about it).

        The New International Version appeared in the 20th century. I consider it easier to read, and it also does not suffer from these sorts of problems. That’s why I linked to it.

        Thanks for the contact information. By the way, the book under discussion can be found here:

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      3. Danielle, it can be beneficial to read the various versions and see what the different translators say, and where they use the same words and where they use different ones. I was raised with the KJV and generally like it (even the “thees” and “thous” can sometimes be a benefit, when it shows the difference between a personal “you” and a general “you”; in addition to being helpful in reading Shakespeare or learning a foreign language), but am not dogmatic about it. I often refer to other versions, just to get a different perspective, or see how else it might be translated.

        There are different types of translation styles — the KJV tends to be a literal translation, whereas other versions like “The Message” (I think, anyway), is not a literal translation but rather an interpretation of what the translator thinks the original text meant. I’d stick with literal translations — they may not be perfect, the translation itself being the work of imperfect men, but at least they let you think for yourself, instead of telling you not what is said but what they think you should think as well.

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      4. As for what Bible would be right, the KJV has obsolete language and is difficult for the modern person to understand. Formal translations are the best for study, and the latest, supposed best one is the English Standard Version. The New International Version is much more dynamic – thought-for-thought – meaning it becomes more interpretive than translative. But it is much better than those which are more dynamic, such as the New English Translation or the New Living Translation. And even more dynamic are those like God’s Word. STAY AWAY FROM “The Message” – It is a paraphrase which quite often says 180 degrees different from a real Bible.

        The Bible I like to use most is one that is more formal than the NIV yet more dynamic than the ESV and other formals. I recommend the Holman Christian Standard Bible.

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