I urge you to respond with the quote in the title when people make claims about Christianity. Today’s example: A pro-gay theology fluff piece by the Houston Chronicle about “Bring your gay teen to church day.” It was pure propaganda-masquerading-as-news. Of course I’d like to see everyone in church on Sunday, including gays. I just want them to go to churches that teach the truth.
Ebie Hussey’s first reaction when her son announced that he is gay was to offer unconditional love.
Finding a new church was a close second.
That is a recurring lie they weave into their messages: If you say that sin is sin then you are being unloving. Christianity may not be Ms. Hussey’s strong suit.
“His first question was, ‘Am I going to hell?’ ” Hussey said of that conversation with her son, Jaxn. “Mainstream Christianity and fundamental Christianity really pushes that homosexuality is a sin, and he had caught on to that.”
Actually, the Bible is pretty clear on this topic:
- 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
- 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
- 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
- 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
Even a lot of pro-gay theology folks will concede that. They just claim that the Bible isn’t really God’s word or that he has changed his mind. Run, don’t walk, from “Christians” who claim those things.
Jaxn, now 15, knew his parents didn’t think that. “But I had always heard people saying that kind of thing,” he said.
Note how he and his parents are the arbiters of God’s truth. The article never even hints that we’d look to the Bible for the answers.
In an effort to counter the message, almost two dozen Houston-area churches have designated Sunday as Bring Your Gay Teen to Church Day.
I wish they would have published a list. They would be churches to avoid.
“We think it’s important for families to know there’s a safe place to go to worship,” said Jim Bankston, senior minister at St. Paul’s United Methodist Church. “Families who have gay members want to make sure they feel welcome in church and aren’t bashed in any way.”
There’s that falsehood again: If you say that sin is sin then you are “bashing” people. Hey “Reverend” Bankston: Is bashing a sin? Then aren’t you bashing the bashers and committing that sin yourself? Why aren’t you open and affirming towards “bashers?”
Joanna Crawford, a seminary student at the Houston Graduate School of Theology, said the idea came up after the suicide last fall of Asher Brown, a Cypress-area eighth-grader who killed himself after what his parents said were years of bullying and taunts that he was gay.
Did you catch the non sequitur? They try to say that teaching biblical truths cause suicides. The facts show otherwise: These suicide tragedies are usually very complicated. It isn’t people who just left Focus on the Family “Love Won Out” conferences that are doing the bullying and taunting.
It is a project of the Houston Clergy Council, formed last year to allow churches to work together on shared concerns.
“None of us knew Asher, but we felt if we could get families into our churches, where they have support, where they feel loved for who they are, not in spite of it, something good could come of that,” Crawford said.
They get love backwards. Yes, love them for who they are: Human beings. Don’t love them because of a particular sin.
Organized religion has had a complicated relationship with homosexuality.
Mainly because fakes have crept in and polluted the teachings of the church.
Joel Osteen, pastor of Lakewood Church, waded into the fray last month when he told CNN that homosexuality is a sin, although he doesn’t preach on the topic and a number of people who attend his church, the largest in the United States, are gay.
Joel finally spoke the truth?!
A survey last fall by the Public Religion Research Institute found that fewer than 20 percent of Americans believe places of worship do a good job on the issue. Almost half said religion’s message on the topic is “negative,” and 40 percent said the messages contribute “a lot” to negative perceptions of gays and lesbians.
This is where surveys prove to be meaningless. The question shouldn’t be whether the messages contribute to negative perceptions but whether the messages are biblical.
Almost two-thirds said the messages contribute to higher rates of suicide among gay and lesbian youth.
That’s because the wildly biased mainstream media has been telling them that. It doesn’t mean it is true.
Mainline Protestant churches — including the Episcopal, Lutheran and Methodist churches — began wrestling with how to interpret biblical writings on the issue several decades ago, he said.
That’s only because those churches went soft on keeping apostates out and exercising church discipline on false teachers. But just because some want to ignore the Bible doesn’t mean the teachings aren’t still there.
“Younger people are much more supportive on rights for same-sex couples than the older generation,” he said. “They also were much more likely to see these connections between negative views in the churches and negative views in society and with the higher rates of suicide.”
Wow, they keep working in that false connection, don’t they? Almost as if the Chronicle wants you to believe it. One of the tragedies in the last year involved a kid who, among other things. took a stuffed animal to school and insisted on a chair for it. This kid was deeply trouble and not helped. To blame his suicide on Bible-believing Christians is ridiculous, but the pro-gay theology ghouls love a good victim story.
Hussey did a computer search for “gay-friendly churches” and discovered Plymouth United Church of Christ in Spring.
“It’s been a huge blessing,” Hussey said. “It has brought me so much closer to God and to my spirituality, having a gay child, because it puts me in the position of Jesus’ message, which is unconditional love.”
Really? Where did they get this news about Jesus? If it was the Bible, why do they ignore what He says in the rest of it, including his claim that God’s design for marriage is for one man and one woman? Why do they pick and choose which parts of Jesus they want to listen to? Seems to me they are just making up their own version of Jesus.
The Rev. Ginny Brown Daniel and members of the congregation “showed me God doesn’t hate you because you’re gay,” he said.
God hates sin, and He wants to save you. But you have to repent and believe. I wonder how often the “Reverend” Daniel teaches that? The truth sounds like hate to those that hate the truth.
That was important to his parents.
“When a child tells you they’re gay, you don’t want to change your plan for him,” Ebie Hussey said. “I still want him to be a doctor. I still want him to marry a doctor. I still want him to be Christian.”
She should start by being a Christian herself and trusting the word of God and following God on his terms. As it stands, she is making up her own god.
If you really love those identifying as GLBTX you’ll seek to share the truth with them. Propping them up with lies to make yourself more popular in our politically correct culture is just loving yourself, not your neighbor. Here’s one of my experiences sharing the Gospel with someone identifying as gay.
60 thoughts on ““That’s interesting, but what does the Bible say?””
Sometimes you’ve got to laugh. This:
“Finding a new church was a close second.”
made me laugh. Of coarse it should have read:
“Finding an apostate church was a close second.”
Ha! Yes, her statement spoke volumes. Someone she loves has a particular sin in his life so she had to shop for a new church that would bless it.
The other thing homosexualists claim is that while the Bible is correct, we mis-interpret the particular passages and that God really approves of true love between members of the same sex. Of course they don’t have a passage from Scripture to back up that claim.
Yep. I think it might be good to re-run my “Problems with pro-gay theology” series where I address the three main ways the apostates / fakes advance their cause.
Great article Brother Neil!
My favorite part:
“That’s only because those churches went soft on keeping apostates out and exercising church discipline on false teachers. But just because some want to ignore the Bible doesn’t mean the teachings aren’t still there.”
Thanks, brother! As irritated as I get at the fakes I have to remember that it was the orthodox who let them hang around. Now the fakes have been around so long and gained positions of authority they think they are real!
i came across this one that someday I will address from the huffingtonpost (which is a treasure trove for topics) called The Bible supports same-gender marriage by Rev. Dr. Janet Edwards, I think the name says it all, but it’s really interesting the contortions ad omissions necessary to achieve their conclusions.
I’ll be sure to link to that. Wish I had time to fisk all their heresies!
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BTW, where can I find an “adultery-friendly” church? I just can’t seem to find acceptance or tolerance at my church. Its who I am, you filthy bigot!
I think Mark Driscoll’s church might do. :oD
I would love to see an enterprising, small-o orthodox church take up the Bring Your Gay Teen to Church Day, not to berate the young adult, but to teach him the truth found in God’s written word — because the truth is more important than one’s self-esteem, even (and especially) when the truth hurts.
I’m not a pastor, but I would preach on the following passages, all teachings of Jesus Christ Himself:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” – Mt 5:17-20
I would note that some instructions in the Old Testament have been fulfilled by Christ Himself. The Letter to the Hebrews explains that His death on the cross fulfills the system of animal sacrifices, which were only a shadow pointing forward to His death. I would also point out that, along with Paul, Peter’s vision in Acts, and Christ’s own teaching (Mt 15:11), Hebrews de-emphasizes dietary regulations “which are of no value to those who eat them” (13:19).
But, while the new covenant has changed our understanding of sacrifices and kosher law — external rules that pointed forward to the cross and (I believe) the internal cleansing by the Holy Spirit — this New Testament DID NOT relax God’s law regarding sexuality. In Matthew 5:27-28, Christ even teaches that mere lust is as immoral as adultery.
The prohibition of homosexual relationships isn’t the most important commandment — though it is currently one under one of the strongest assaults, and a knight should defend any of his king’s towns that are under seige, even if it’s not the capital or some important port — but here we see that we don’t have the freedom to ignore it. Christ Himself taught us to teach even the least of the law.
And it’s clear what Christ taught about why we were made male and female.
” ‘Haven’t you read,’ he replied, ‘that at the beginning the Creator “made them male and female,” and said, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”?’ ” – Mt 19:4-5
Christ invoked Genesis to explain why God never intended for marriage to result in divorce, that it was a concession toward our hardened hearts, to be exercised only in the most serious circumstances.
But, like any principle, it has more than one application. The third commandment (Ex 20:7), tells us why it’s wrong to use the name of God in rough, obsene language, but the commandment also tells us that it’s wrong to swear to the Lord and break your word (by perjury as a witness, or by failing to keep your oath), and it’s wrong to attribute to God a word that He has not given.
To every teenager in attendence, to those who self-identify primarily by their feelings of attraction to one group or another, I would say:
God made you male, or God made you female. Jesus Christ Himself is clear why He did this: God made you male so that you would leave your family and become one flesh with a female wife; God made you female so that a man would leave his family and become one flesh with you as your husband.
This is the only biblically permissible expression of sexual desire, and in the same chapter Christ explains that the only exception is a renunciation of that desire.
If you seek to express that desire in any other context — through promiscuity, “serial monogamy” of relationships that don’t last, desire for another man’s wife, or, yes, through desire for a member of the same sex — then you’re engaging in sin.
The good news is that, while we were sinners, Christ died for us — and that this is how God has shown His unfathomable love for us (Rom 5:8).
“And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.’ ” – Mt 26:27-28
But God through Christ did not rescue us from the penalty of sin so that we could go on sinning (cf. Rom 6). We’re thankfully not saved BY good works, but we’re saved FOR good works (Eph 2:10). We’re supposed to bear fruit, we’re called to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48).
I’ve become convinced, through e.g. Romans 7, that God saves us from sin’s penalty AND its power — and eventually, even its presence — so, while it’s sometimes painful to resist sin, no one is expecting any adopted child of God to resist on his own power. God will work with those who submit to Him, to give them the desire and the ability to live a righteous life (Phil 2:13).
But we are called to put to death the sins of our old life.
“Jesus stood up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, Lord.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.‘ ” – Jn 8:10-11
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ ” – Mt 4:17
We would be derelict in our duties if we did not teach you what Christ has taught.
The flip side of this outline of a hypothetical sermon is this: how many explicit teachings of Christ must a pastor avoid or distort in order to embrace and condone homosexual relationships?
‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.’ (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11)
Love your enemies; pray for those who persecute you; do good to those who hate you. If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good (Rom. 12:17-21).
Nice Bible verses, but it would help if you explained what that has to do with this conversation. Gal. 3:28 doesn’t apply if this people aren’t in Christ (and they don’t give evidence that they are). And even if they are, there are many, many passages warning against false teachers and the importance of sound doctrine — http://www.4simpsons.com/doctrine_counts.htm . Why didn’t you quote any of those?
Re. Romans 12: We are trying to conquering evil with good: Sharing good teachings to push out bad and loving our neighbors by warning them of false teachers.
Nyxzie: Galatians 3:28 is about salvation and who may be saved, not everyone is entitled to sin.
And I’d like to thank you for pointing out how incredibly hypocritical homosexual advocates are. They perceive they are persecuted and respond by slinging hate speech and slander. (please forgive the shameless plug, but this is the most glaring example of homosexual hypocracy I have ever seen!!) Calling Christians bigots and monsters. So thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Churches are full of sinners. Every person in a church is a sinner. So I would assume the suicide rate of those who do practice other sins match those who practice homosexuality? Oh, they don’t? Perhaps there is something besides homosexuality being considered a sin that might explain the higher suicide rate? At least places like San Francisco have gay friendly environments and thus lower suicide rates right? Oh, wait. http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=5647416. You either have absolute or relative morality. Choosing relative morality moves you away from calling out sin and just focusing on loving others. But it also moves you away from God. Because, in the end, it is no longer about being the person God wants you to be but about God being kind of God you want him to be. No longer the great “I AM” but now the insignificant ” i want…”
The church should welcome all who wish to come to know God. We are to be the light of the world – beacons in a sea of turmoil. Don’t get comfortable. This world is not our home. Plant the Word in your hearts. Follow the example of our Lord.
Jesus went in among sinners and the Father’s love and compassion within Him motivated Him to heal them physically and spiritually through the empowering of the Holy Spirit that dwelt within Him. Like 1 Peter tells us, “love covers a multitude of sins.” Like James reminds us “mercy triumphs over judgment.”
Love the sinner, hate the sin. God is love. All goodness comes from God. Regarding mankind, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” The only unforgivable sin mentioned in scripture is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin. We are not instructed to convict the unsaved. Only as the Spirit leads. He is the essence of God residing in our hearts if we are believers. We are instructed to die to self (the flesh) daily and live by the Spirit. For the Spirit gives us life. God is Spirit. We are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Let Him form the words that roll off your tongue.
All you that are still observing any iota of the law are not living by the Spirit. If you are living by the Spirit, you fulfill the entirety of the law. The Spirit keeps you from all sin. Paul is very explicit about this in his letters. Galatians is awesome for understanding this. See chapter 5 verse 16. Romans, especially chapter 8, Hebrews, especially chapter 8, Colossians 2:14, among many others.
Just reading this post and your commentary gives my heart desire to advise that you please fill your lamp with the oil of the Spirit. The time is short. The bridegroom will soon return.
“The church should welcome all who wish to come to know God.”
Very true. But should it welcome those who come to distort God?
Those who teach and minister need to be pure of heart, teaching in truth and earnestly desire to bring all into the flock.
Those who intentionally distort need to be confronted and told to repent. First by one, then by several, finally the entire church. If there is no repentence, then they are to be turned out and over to satan, so they don’t corrupt the church.
Now that only applies to believers. The unsaved are spiritually dead already, and we are to be a testimony to them. The lives we lead and the joy we have should help draw them unto God. The love we have, one to another, will attest to our God.
I think you are referring to Mathew 18 on this which says:
If this is true, you, who ever you are, are in error. This scripture teaches us to deal with someone who sins against us. If we do this on the foundation which you have built your argument, we are to embrace the one who sinned against us and welcome him all the more fervently into our midst, and to rebuke the one who brought it up for daring to be legalistic and unloving.
How wonderful it must be to dwell in a land where the word love is meaningless beyond what makes a person feel good. What an advantage you have over those who love God and worship him in spirit and in truth as far as these fruitless arguments go. Scripture does not spare words in its address of sin. Yet anyone who does so today is classified as a Pharisee by the likes of this person and thus proclaimed unloving. How easy it is to shred truth in the name of love and make every contender for truth look like a mean spirited Pharisee who is hateful and has taken the low road. How does one reason with the likes of you when your argument is built on emotion as opposed to scripture and reason; when the element of the heart in all that is is rejected or ignored? You have not taken the high road, nor the low. You simply float and flitter expressing feel good scripture while ignoring the truths behind them and the pain and suffering that is resulting all around from their disregard. I’m sure you will have a wonderful feel good response to my little diatribe. I caution all who read it (I will not, I swore off fruitless arguments with Christianoids with seemingly endless time on their hands to witness–read argue– to their “brothers” in the Lord while ignoring the lost.) that this human being who calls himself poolman and who comes as an angel of light has no problem with the murder of millions of innocent human beings. My thinking is that under the right circumstances he would have no problem with yours or mine either.
So, I’m finished. Let the fallacies begin!
That is the scripture and exactly how I meant it. It refers to believers, the ones teaching incorrect doctrine. That is what I meant by “intentionally distort”. Your reading comprehension is poor, or you are intentionally looking for a reason to discount my words. Read it again, this time remove the plank.
I don’t get how you draw your conclusion of how we are to “embrace the one who sinned against us..” That is a total distortion of what I said. Your entire next paragragh is completely out of line.
I’d like to clarify something. My understanding was that poolman was using this passage to address false teachers – “Those who intentionally distort ” – Is that correct?
But the passage isn’t about false teachers at all, it is about someone who sins against another person. There is no call in Scripture for a false teacher to repent to a person, then witnesses, then the church, etc. A false teacher does not sin against an individual – he sins agains the entire Church.
Is intentionally distorting scripture not a sin against another believer or even the body? I see it as sin. I think God sees it as sin. I think sin means missing the mark. Are there specific sins to which you are referring? Any sin against one part of the body is a sin against the body collective, just as when any part of the body hurts, the entire body suffers.
Yes, intentionally distorting the Word is sin, but that sin is not the context of Matthew, because it is not a personal sin. False teachings need to be exposed as such openly, publicly the very first time – no private conversations.
I would refer you to Acts 15 for handling doctrinal divisions. I refer to Titus for how teachers should be chosen. Chapter 1 verses 10-16 tell us what to avoid. Chapter 3 starting with verse 9 tells us how to deal with a divisive person.
For a moment there, I thought I might get through these comments without an appeal to “grace”. Forgive me, Poolman, if I’ve taken your comments improperly, but i’ve been engaged with some who seem to believe that there IS such a thing as sexual immorality, and they seem to MEAN it when they say they oppose it, but, somehow, when I speak of it, I’m a chided for not thinking of grace, or as you put it, “living by the Spirit”.
My problem is this: how can we help our fellow man if by speaking of sinful behaviors in which they engage we must then defend against charges of gracelessness or not living by the Spirit? What’s worse, is that we must defend ourselves against other Christians (usually of the progressive variety) leveling these charges.
I know of one particular homosexual who would insist to you that he is living by the Spirit. He is not just a homosexual, but is a “married” homosexual and somehow, I doubt his “marriage” has not been consummated. “Open and affirming” congregations believe that THEY are living by the Spirit. But how can any of these people truly be living by the Spirit if they are actively supporting behavior so blatantly forbidden by God Himself? Am I to assume that living by the Spirit means that there is no longer such a thing as sinful behaviors?
One is not living by the Spirit, in my view, if when given the opportunity, either by voting for or against civil legislation, or by speaking face to face with a perpetrator of any given sin, one does not make every effort to act in accordance with the teachings of Scripture. In this case, it would be to speak against homosexual behavior as the sin it is, while expressing love and support for the sinner who so struggles. To do the latter, without stressing the former is cheap grace and a false example of living in the Spirit.
Marshall, you are correct, there is plenty of sexual immorality to go around. Just turn on the TV and you will see how our society in the western world is permeated with that sin. We have elevated sexual sin to the very degree it was before the flood. I mean, sex sells everything in our world. It is much harder to stay holy with all the perversion around us, but that is what we are called to do. We are even required to control our every thought in this regard. It is tough. But He gives us the ability. Submit it all to his authority.
First, we have to be convicted that it is sin. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Condemning sinful behavior to non believers, or forcing them to live under God’s laws is not our mission. Not all are called to be children of God. We are to live holy lives. They will know us by our love, one for another. God will draw them to us.
We can pray for them, and we are told to. If they ask anything from us, we are told to give it. But we were never instructed to be crusaders, forcing our convictions on others.
Yet, you would have us submit to their crusades to force the nation and culture into altering understandings and laws to satisfy their beliefs. Don’t see that we’re to just sit back and allow that if we have the ability to oppose. Indeed, I believe where we can legally and morally do so, we are called to stand for righteousness. If it means going into the voting booth to vote for candidates who align themselves with the truth or to call existing politicians and lobby for their support for the truth, then we need to be doing so. Merely stepping out of sin’s way and letting it have its way is not something I think you can support Biblically.
Poolman, I encourage you to start your own blog if you want to post long, off-topic platitudes and sermonettes. No one here is claiming that we’re saved by following the law. There are many passages warning of false teachers and stressing the importance of sound doctrine — http://www.4simpsons.com/doctrine_counts.htm.
It was thinking like this that planted the seed for my last post: Legalism vs. legalism.
I don’t know how you see it as “off-topic.” Like the parable in Matthew 13:24-30 tells us, we do more harm than good discrediting other believers, and that seems to be a common topic here. Like Phillipians 1:18 says, “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,”
I did follow your link to your post regarding “sharing the Gospel” to a person who was gay. You share there about how we should practice saying the right things, working on the conversation over and over to improve it.
To that I do take some issue. Yes, practice does help. But practice to me would mean the next opportunity God gives us to witness. Perfect words and polished talk is not what witnessing is about. There is no formula except to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you. Speaking from the heart and allowing God to minister through you is how we are called to live. It may be messier, but it is more real.
This is funny. Being lectrued to by a pro-abort about righteousness and sharing the gospel. He is so worried about the souls of his brethern who are not living up to his standards of non-standardness.
BTW Neil. I think this guy might well have his own blog.
LOL. I think he and Dan were separated at birth.
There’s a difference in discrediting other believers and discrediting their beliefs. Neil “discredits” Currie and Wallis by discrediting their beliefs and what they are preaching, which is truly and obviously false and unBiblical.
Christ is not preached if what is said to come from Him does not. In that case, they are preaching someone else who they call Christ, but not the Christ of the Bible.
Frankly, I believe these types of preachers mean well, in their own twisted way, but that they have failed to first establish that what they are defending is truly a case of people unjustly denied. No one has yet. That is, denied maybe. Unjustly? Not at all.
I am familiar with Jim Wallis, but not Currie. I find Wallis’ doctrine sound and believe he is doing much good to advance the Kingdom. I am not always 100 percent in agreement, but 99 percent of the time I agree with his stuff. I have a whole list of false teachers, but even some of what they preach is sound. The biggest deceivers are likely ones Neil likes. Hagee is probably top of my list there.
Wallis is on record for saying, in context, that the gospel is all about wealth redistribution. He is a false teacher.
You saying that I believe fakes without a single example is ridiculous. If you want to be banned for good, please repeat that. I can live without your comments just fine. You are wildly confused but I’ll be glad to let you join the other Superfans (TM) who are compulsive readers but whose comments are deleted from the spam filter without being read. Your call.
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Hagee was my single example. Robertson, Tilton, Hinn, Dobson, Schuller, Van Impe, to name a few.
You said he was at the top of your list, and I was just point out there are much worse teachers than Hagee.
Glenn, that was in response to Neil who claimed:
I guess I don’t recall seeing Neil promote Hagee.
Wallis is a rank heretic, with unsound theology, and if you think otherwise, it shows your lack of discernment, and lack of knowledge of what the Word says!
While Hagee is a false teacher, he can’t come close to Wallis or Spong or Benny Hinn – so he’s not on the top of my list!
I read Sojourner’s from Wallis and it is usually accurate scripturally. Some of the contributers are definitely pushing an agenda, but really which ones today are not? I have read Neil’s criticisms of some of Wallis’ teaching, but I think he goes too far by claiming he is for government advocated wealth distribution. I don’t read him that way. He certainly does hold a view more in line with progressives. I do think “rank heretic” is unfounded and over the top.
Well, poolman, I guess that just shows your lack of discernment. Neil is right on the money. Funny how every apologetics ministry I am aware of condemns Wallis as a false teacher.
Poolman, do you realize how hypocritical you are? Re-read all your comments where you do exactly what you are accusing us of.
Re. Phil 1:18 — They aren’t preaching the real Christ any more than the Mormons are. That’s the point of the post.
Re. “practice” — I think that is a false dichotomy. Studying hard, thinking carefully, learning from mistakes and working on the best way to present the Gospel is in no way counter to being “real” and doesn’t inhibit the Holy Spirit one bit.
We are to always discredit false teachings whether they come from other so-called believers or not. If we do not discredit these teachings, then others will become seduced to them.
Sometimes it is also necessary to discredit “believers” who are not believers so as to let others know they do not represent the Christian faith. If a person claims to be a believer and yet denies cardinal doctrines of the faith, then for all their claims of being a believer, their teachings confirm they are not. I’ll use John Shelby Spong as an example of one claiming to be a Christian and yet MUST BE discredited by true believers. He teachings against just about every doctrine of Christianity!
There is nothing wrong with practicing what you want to say – it is actually very smart, and for all you know it is the Holy Spirit’s guidance to do said practice. It isn’t about “perfect words and polished talk,” it’s about remembering how to address specific issues intelligently when one is not really good at on-the-spot, off-the-cuff responses. I don’t really “practice,” but I have a small notebook I keep with me which has reminders of various things which can be used with various attacks against the faith when I am engaged in my street ministry. And you cannot claim the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire me to do the notebook – that it isn’t “real” enough for you.
I agree with your comment, but I think regarding non believers, it is more important to let God draw them in and then allow the Holy Spirit to work in their lives and convict them of unconfessed sin and lead them toward true teaching. Most baby Christians are still in the milk stage and sometimes contradicting doctrine can confuse them. As their faith grows and they spend time in the Word and in prayer, they learn to discern good from evil. Holy Spirit will lead them in the way they should go. He will never leave us or forsake us. Jesus is our high priest and we don’t need others to fit that role. Many become dependent on others when they should be depending on God.
I’m not familiar with John Shelby Spong, but with a name like that, I’m sure I’ll remember if he crosses my path.
I also keep a notebook where I keep notes and record dreams. I also have listed people I have met and their specific prayer requests that I can present to the Father.
A way to “draw” non-believing false teachers is to demonstrate to them the nature of the false teachings, compare with what Scripture truly says. If you don’t tell them what the false teachings are, how are they to just “learn it” for themselves? People can get so wrapped up in false teaching that they won’t recognize it as error and often won’t listen to the truth, which is why there are so many people in cults. But you would just let them be “drawn” by God? God draws all men to himself, but they don’t always listen! It’s not being a priestly role to teach someone the Word of God and expose their error – I have no idea where you got such an understanding.
Keeping notes and recording dreams is a bit of an aberration. Tell me from Scripture where this is what a Christian should be doing. the interpretation of dreams belongs to God. Gen. 40:8, 41:16; Dan. 2.
People that seek truth are drawn into many cults for sure. Most offer rails of truth to appear righteous. Satan has been called the shining one and offers false light.
If you read Jude, you would see that it is false to claim “God draws all men to Himself”. Some are marked for condemnation.
Job 33: 14-16, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17 talks about dreams. God does interperate some of them as we ask Him among several in my Bible study group. I have had some profound revelations this way.
John 12:31-21 Jesus draws ALL men. Those who are marked for condemnation are those who ignore God. Paul says in 1 Rom that all men know of God, that God puts the knowledge in his creation and in their hearts, but not all men choose to seek Him. Those are the ones who are condemned.
Oh, and there are people in your study group who give words from God to interpret your dreams? So now we are getting new revelations?
All things are revealed to believers who earnestly seek Him. 1 John 2:27 attests to this. Even Daniel chapter 12 talks about scripture sealed until the times of the end. (now days). What do you think the spiritual gift of prophecy is for? As long as it doesn’t contradict God’s Word or Jesus’ teaching and is confirmed by 2 or more witnesses, it can be considered sound.
Poolman, I’d say that is an abuse of 1 John 2:27, which has nothing to do with your so-called prophecies. Hebrews 1 says in FORMER days God spoke through prophets. The NT church had prophecy because they had no NT collection. We no have the writings of the apostles and have no need of prophets. A prophet spoke two things – 1. Things which God had him foretell and 2. Things God had as messages for the current audience. What possibly could a so-called new prophet have to tell us from God? SO now you have prophets interpreting dreams?
I’ve witnesses some of these so-called current prophets in charismatic churches, and they just always had some feel-good message – nothing that contradicted Scripture, but nothing that we don’t already have from Scripture.
The gift of prophecy is a direct line from God, with direct revelation from God. Any church that claims direct revelation from God is one to avoid.
I always wonder why only charismatics have these prophets? Hmmmmmmm.
Yes, former days He spoke through the prophets. The rest of that verse says in these last days He speaks to us through His Son. Awesome book, Hebrews. It explains our new relationship with the Father, if we are in Him. Yes, His sheep hear his voice. He even said that in the Gospels. The key word is “hear”. 12:25 claims He speaks to us from heaven. His law is written in our hearts.
Greetings Neil, et al!
This sad situation reminds me of what is becoming my favorite Thomas Sowell quote:
“If you want to help someone, tell them the truth. If you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.”
I may add Proverbs 27:6
“Wounds from a friend can be trusted,
but an enemy multiplies kisses. “
Well said, and great to hear from you!
I just commented on another blog that was talking about this post that “the mother haters her child and loves herself.” Glad I’m not the only one who sees it that way.
Wow, Joseph! Long time no read! Hope to see more comments from you.
Neil, I hope you don’t mind, but I posted your statement, “The truth sounds like hate to those that hate the truth.” on Facebook as my Today’s Quote.
I think it succinctly says it all.
That quote has become one of my favorites. I used to say that truth hurts people that hate the truth, or a variation of that, but Neil’s is just perfect! It will be showing up soon as the opening statement on a post I’m working on
Glad you and Glenn like that! Can’t remember where I heard it or if I modified something similar.
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