For the Bible tells me so is a pro-gay theology movie shown in liberal churches and elsewhere. I watched the trailers and saw many typically bad arguments, starting with comparisons of their opponents to Hitler. How subtle and tolerant of them. Ironically, while this movie is part of the movement that knows that if you tell a lie often enough that many people will believe it they have the nerve to level that claim at Christians.
Despite the title, it doesn’t appear to attempt any serious analysis of what the Bible says about human sexuality. We get a lot of quotes like this:
For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the 2nd class citizenship of women. Now it is being misused to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick. Fundamentalist Christians have been using it throughout the ages and now they are doing it again.
Sure. Of course, one could have made the opposite claim that the Bible was properly used to reject prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, and the second class treatment of women. This is a transparent ad hominem argument (attacking the person, not the message). Since we appear to agree that the Bible, properly interpreted, is accurate, then why not just do that? Oh yeah, because they lose the argument every time then.
- 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
- 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
- 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
- 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
More quotes:
There’s nothing wrong with a 5th grade understanding of God as long as you’re in the 5th grade.
Fear does terrible things to a society.
I’m really getting a feel for what this movie is about: Fact-free personal attacks and emotional appeals that prove nothing.
Moses teaches in Leviticus that it is an abomination to eat shrimp.
The funny thing was that in a film allegedly appealing to what the Bible really says, the only mention in the trailers about the Bible was the item about shrimp. It is a reference to the shellfish argument, which is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to read the passages in context. I address the many errors of that argument in Favorite dish of liberal theologians & skeptics: Shellfish.
When any liberal theologian uses an argument like that I consider it to be a concession speech, because you can’t use it without revealing your ignorance of the Bible and/or your deceptiveness. They really tip their hands when they insist that there is something wrong with the Bible. If they are really Christians they should hold the same view of the Old Testament that Jesus did.
Eternity Matters 
Matthew 7: yes, I know it well.
‘Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.’
‘there was a vast conspiracy to add the prohibitions against homosexuality?’
I don’t believe in conspiracy so much as people behave as people: we don’t continue to look at wider interpretations of our wisdom once we have one level of understanding on them. With Christ we should- he said that his information was layered and in parable for that reason, so that each may take from it what they are currently capable.
It’s unacceptable to believe that we are now enlightened and better than others though: ‘many who are first shall be last’.
The Bible also says that women are unequal to men, should not serve in Temple, it justifies many violent acts including rape, and was written down in an era when slavery was still accepted as a social norm.
Jesus was Jewish, it is very significant that he not destroyed the law as he said he added to it. By making loving kindness the highest priority: ‘Love God above all things and your neighbour as yourself’. You can’t do that through condemnation and judgement.
Because of Jesus any of us can have a personal relationship with God, by following his guidance.
‘I pray you will be able to accept the truth.’
likewise. Though none of us has absolute truth- it is a fragment of a truth we cannot comprehend we each hold, we ‘see through a glass darkly’!
‘please don’t confuse people and label your views as Christian.’
Do I confuse you? I don’t intend to. I write that we are meant to accept and love everyone.
Including Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus- however other people have been spiritually called.
If God called me to another faith I would be of that faith.
The only unforgiveable sin to Christ is blaspheming the holy spirit.
that is the meaning of his not taking away from the law- or any law for that matter. A person can be any religion and follow Christ, or be a christian and not.
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“You can’t do that through condemnation and judgement.”
This is a false argument. Once again you judge us for judging. You are the only one here being hypocritical. We are judging based on what the Bible says: Homosexual behavior is a sin. And we aren’t judging their souls, just that the behavior is immoral in God’s sight.
“Because of Jesus any of us can have a personal relationship with God, by following his guidance.”
Actually, it is by putting our faith in Jesus, not by following his rules – that is, unless you are claiming to follow his rules perfectly. He set the unbelievably high standard of perfection. When we see how short we fall of that we should realize our need for a Savior. You make it sound like if we just do the good works Jesus recommended that we’ll be right with God. That is not what the book says.
“Including Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus- however other people have been spiritually called.
If God called me to another faith I would be of that faith.
The only unforgiveable sin to Christ is blaspheming the holy spirit.”
Tracey, I think you are confusing a couple things. God would not and could not call you to another faith. He was quite clear that those have false gods. Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Yes, that is the only unforgivable sin, but are you implying that all other sins are automatically forgiven? It is only through faith in Jesus that we are forgiven and saved.
“that is the meaning of his not taking away from the law- or any law for that matter. A person can be any religion and follow Christ, or be a christian and not.”
I find that very confusing. Authentic Christians are those that trust in him and him only.
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Hi Tracy,
You are confused as to what the Bible teaches. As far as men and women go, we can have different roles and still be “equal” regarding our worth and value. God made men unable to carry a child in the womb, but that does not make men better or worse than women. As women, we are more susceptible, perhaps, to deception. We do not have the strength and stamina that men do. Notice that men running a race will have faster times than the women. God values all people.
Loving people is indeed a priority, but part of loving is correction. Speaking the truth in love. For example, if my child is unwilling to share his toys, I will correct him because otherwise he will have no friends, and that would not be loving of me. If my chiild was not paying attention and ran out in front of a car, I would yell in order to warn and save him from the oncoming danger. It is the same with Christianity. Christians are called to warn sinners {of which we are, too} to repent and flee from the coming judgment.
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Tracy,
It is obvious that you will continue to deny that sin is sin (where you came up with that “But no, just because a certain mention of homosexuality calls a behaviour sinful, no that doesn’t make it so” idea, I’ll never know. Just because God says something doesn’t mean it’s so? Huh.), all the while making up excuses for your approval of sinful behavior. You will continue to take your Sharpie™ and cross out those parts of the Bible you don’t like, just so you can continue to feel comfortable in your sins.
But you see, people will only feel comfortable while you are in this life. Because one day, when they stand before Christ, they will have to give an account for their life. They will do it at one of two places: The Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Great White Throne. Those who stand at the Judgment Seat (Bema) will be those who received forgiveness for their sins, repented of their sins, and followed Christ in loving God even more than they loved themselves (and especially more than they loved their sins).
Those who stand at the Great White Throne will be those who denied Him, who continued in their sins, and who will be cast into eternal torment. The choice is not mine to make. That’s up to God. But He has shown us who will wind up where.
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Hi Fourpointer and All,
One of the most convicting things a pastor ever said to me personally was, “They will never care how much you know until they know how much you care.” It stung, believe me! We need to be careful that we approach those who are misled in love and gentleness, along with respect.
~1 Peter 3:15 ~
…Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect…,
Do you agree?
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‘You will continue to take your Sharpie™ and cross out those parts of the Bible you don’t like, just so you can continue to feel comfortable in your sins.’
you’re very interesting Neil, you seem to have set yourself out as some kind of christian guru with this website.
I don’t see you pointing out the other sins and sinners of the world, as you see them or as the Bible does; I see you singling out homosexuality. That will lead to evil.
Yes, there’s lots in the Bible I would not use as a basis for my own values or for following Jesus in my own life. We were always meant to be discerning and exercise our own judgement and prayer!
There’s a sect here in TX who are convinced they should practise polygamy because it says so in the OT.
Down the ages many many people have been as convinced they were right as you seem to be, and their intolerance lead to great suffering for others.
‘part of loving is correction’
yes, which is why I believe was lead to write here; I wanted to point out that not everyone views homosexuals as any more or less sinful than anyone else on this earth, and that I don’t think it is a loving or Christ-like attitude which the original poster showed, in his attempt to save others.
‘We need to be careful that we approach those who are misled in love and gentleness, along with respect.’
and Hallelujah! someone finally gets it…
Love and God Bless to all, my work here is done!
: )
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Hi Tracie,
First, I didn’t make the Sharpie comment.
Second, your bit about me singling out homosexuality (or more specifically, homosexual behavior) is inaccurate and irrelevant. I write even more about the problems of abortion.
And I wouldn’t be writing about homosexual behavior if people like you weren’t saying it wasn’t sinful.
“There’s a sect here in TX who are convinced they should practise polygamy because it says so in the OT.”
Yes, people misinterpret the Bible. I don’t see the relevance.
“Down the ages many many people have been as convinced they were right as you seem to be, and their intolerance lead to great suffering for others.”
Please explain why this comment wouldn’t apply to you as well.
“and Hallelujah! someone finally gets it…”
I’m glad you appreciated Andrea’s point, but I’m not sure you caught the underlying message: She is much gentler than me, but we can both see that your views are non-Christian. She knows you have been misled.
Best of luck to you.
Peace,
neil
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Neil,
You always makes things so clear, and touch on every important point. Great job!
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Andrea,
Yes, we should of course correct people in love. And that is what I have tried to do with Tracy. But as you have been able to see, she will not take correction. She believes her “feelings” and anti-biblical beliefs are more important than what the Word of God says. While I was not trying to be harsh or coarse with her, there are times when you must be very matter-of-fact about things. This was one of those times.
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Anyone who doesn’t agree with you or conform to everything you say is the christian life is not a Christian? Do you really mean that? Then there would be no ‘body of Christ’, people have always believed different things right from Jesus’ death and still. Religion is viewed through culture, personality, era, received wisdom and spiritual growth & calling.
I heard a Rosh-hashanah sermon last year where the Rabbi said of course an atheist was still a Jew: everyone was amazed as he turned the story around, and explained he was once an atheist! But we can only grow spiritually in a fertile place, not a hard-hearted rocky outcropping!
I go to Unity Church. I personally could never whole-heartedly subscribe to a set of views where all people are not received and cared about equally, I may seem too into fellings but I do love everyone and don’t expect people to all think, believe or behave the same as me or as each other.
From study and prayer I know I am meant to love people even where I don’t understand or agree with them, and share Jesus’ message as best I can in the way he did- in a way people can receive it.
‘there are times when you must be very matter-of-fact about things.’
Maybe, but the only people Jesus decried were the religious leaders who would lead people from God by doing nothing to lift the burdens they had placed upon them.
It places heavy burdens indeed by denouncing people for homosexuality and abortion and for being of other faith-beliefs, you are asking people to do what you yourselves cannot do here with me- see another point of view and reconsider your position.
I saw a comedian on TV recently, he said ‘when an animal rights activist throws red paint over a person wearing a fur coat I wonder if anyone ever responded with “okay, point taken!” ‘
Sometimes the more strongly we feel about something the more gently it needs to be spoken- or even better, demonstrated.
Jesus oft-used phrase about others taking advice was ‘he that hath ears to hear- let him hear’. He said that people could hear without understanding in the way he shared things- through stories and most of all the example of his love and self-sacrifice.
Fourpointer, with respect, how could you correct me, when you don’t accept me? Why would I believe you and trust you have my interests at heart, especially when you say I can’t be a christian?!
What if I said – well you can’t be either?! Where does that go? Nowhere. No dialogue, no learning from each other, no Spirit!
Jesus said that the righteous have no need of him- his was a healing ministry for the world’s sinful humanity. He knew full well that- and he included himself- all around him were equally sinful, whatever their appearance or status. He urged all to strive for perfection, like God. ‘God alone is good’.
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Hi Tracy,
No. That isn’t what any of us said. I’m on record as agreeing with St. Augustine: In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.
Where we differ is in what Jesus’ message was. Other than generalities about loving people I haven’t seen you teach anything like He did. More below.
You are placing a larger burden on homosexuals or other sinners by telling them they aren’t sinning and don’t need a Savior. If you love people you’ll encourage them to avoid sinful, destructive behaviors. You’ll want them to know that while abortions are wrong, forgiveness and healing are possible through Jesus.
I don’t see you considering our point of view and reconsidering your position.
If you want to say I’m not a Christian, then feel free to explain why. I claim to believe in the essentials of the Christian faith and to trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Show me where I disagree with Jesus and I’ll be glad to be corrected. But I’ve studied the whole book quite a bit and I think I’m in pretty solid agreement with him (though I’m still a sinner in need of a Savior 24×7).
Here are some samples from a future post:
Jesus thought we should take the Gospel to the Jews. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus thought the appropriate name for him to reference the first person of the Trinity was Father. I agree. Liberal theologians sometimes disagree.
Jesus said to make judgments, but not to judge hypocritically. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree, and say we shouldn’t judge at all.
Jesus taught that there is a real place called Hell and that it will be an awful place to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that He was God. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus believed that Satan was a real being and a force for evil. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that He was the only way to salvation. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus agreed with the Old Testament, which showed how God punished the Israelites severely and often for following other gods. I agree. Liberal theologians think that other religions and their gods are valid.
Jesus taught that everyone is a sinner in need of him as a Savior. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we should give our money to help the poor. He did not teach that we should ask the government to force others to “give” to our pet causes. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that the Old Testament was accurate down to the last letter and mark. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that other belief systems were false and was not ashamed to expose them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we should the Gospel to all nations and to make disciples. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we shouldn’t murder and expanded on that . . . hating like murder, your neighbor is the least likely person you’d expect it to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree and are pro-legalized abortion.
Jesus taught that false teachings are dangerous and could send people to Hell. He railed against them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
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Don’t generalise too much Neil- there is no ‘liberal theologian’ or ‘conservative theologian’; people believe very different things I find, even where they identify with either of these labels. I’ll try to comment on your ideas, but remember though I know a lot about scripture and have an open mind about various interpretations I have 100% belief that God is only good or loving. No God of wrath, destruction or mythology- I only personally believe in the spirit that is God, nor do I know what it is, only my own experiences:
Neil said: Hi Tracy – sorry for inserting comments here, but I’m short on time. I think the items I listed for liberals hold true. I did say “generally,” so I wasn’t implying it was 100%, and you actually prove my points repeatedly below.
If you think God doesn’t have wrath and won’t destroy things then you don’t understand the Bible at all. Yes, He is the epitome of love, but He has perfect justice as well.
‘Jesus thought we should take the Gospel to the Jews. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus was a Jew. He said to preach to Jews first then other nations. I don’t see anywhere he said to start any new religions or to worship him as a God.
Neil said: I’m glad you acknowledge that liberal theologians say that, but wow. Jesus is God. That is a foundation of our faith. Countless Christians have died rather than deny that truth – http://www.whatthebibleteaches.com/wbt_130.htm
‘Jesus thought the appropriate name for him to reference the first person of the Trinity was Father. I agree. Liberal theologians sometimes disagree.’
I believe that Jesus was instructing people they may have a strong personal relationship with God, who he calls Father. I don’t think that means God is human or male.
‘Jesus said to make judgments, but not to judge hypocritically. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree, and say we shouldn’t judge at all.’
A hypocrite was someone who pretended to be another’s faith or values to gain favour or trust; Jesus said we should apply the same judgements to ourselves as others.
Neil said: Right, but you don’t do that. You quote Matthew 7:1 but not the rest. You judge homosexual behavior as not being sinful, and then judge us for saying it is (which is what the Bible says). Each of us makes judgments about whether something is right or not, but you are the only one who judges the other one merely for making a judgment.
‘Jesus taught that there is a real place called Hell and that it will be an awful place to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Hades was the Greek Underworld, a mythological place. Gehenna was the burning refuse pit outside Jerusalem where the dead people who weren’t entitled to burial rites were discarded. In Judaism this was a big thing.
Neil said: Thanks for conceding my point that you disagree with Jesus again. We all know about Gehenna. Do you think Jesus was saying people would literally go there? Do you think it is possible that it was a figure of speech to describe an incredibly awful place?
‘Jesus taught that He was God. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
Jesus said ‘why do you call me good? Only God is good.’
Neil said: Thanks for conceding my point that you disagree with Jesus. Jesus never said He wasn’t God. That was probably a tongue-in-cheek comment or a statement of the obvious.
Again, you call yourself a Christian and deny the deity of Christ. That is very confusing.
‘Jesus believed that Satan was a real being and a force for evil. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Satan is a metaphor for evil. ‘Demons’ was the way of explaining things which we have different explanations for too now- mental illness& disability. I think our popular images of Satan and hell come more from the fiction of Dante and poets like Milton than the Bible.
Neil said: Once again, thanks for proving that I was right. Yes, popular images come more from fiction than the Bible. That’s a problem. But Jesus was definitely not using him as a metaphor for evil.
‘Jesus taught that He was the only way to salvation. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
depends what you mean by the only way. There are many ways to God- but study them and they are the same teachings as Jesusand the same concepts fo love and self-sacrifice.
Neil said: No, you completely miss the point of Christianity and what the Bible teaches. The Old Testament is spectacularly clear that there is one God and one way to him and that He didn’t want false gods to be worshiped. The New Testament teaches one hundred times that faith in the real Jesus is the only way to salvation. If you think doing good deeds will win over God then you are not saved. You need to repent and trust in Jesus. Please consider this seriously.
‘Jesus agreed with the Old Testament, which showed how God punished the Israelites severely and often for following other gods. I agree. Liberal theologians think that other religions and their gods are valid. ‘
Jesus taught that there is but one God. Everyone who experiences God is experiencing the same thing, whatever they name it.
Neil said: No, the God of the Bible is very particularly defined and He made it very clear not to worship other gods.
All religions have some elements of truth, none yet has the full truth. I believe we are all meant to learn from each other and to develop the spirituality in each faith, and lose the human aspects.
Neil said: But you are claiming that as the full truth, and you don’t have a standard to support it.
‘Jesus taught that everyone is a sinner in need of him as a Savior. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
I agree. But not in this concept of ‘saved’ as some kind of magic ritual which only some people can belong to. Anyone can call on God, anytime. Some of them, most of them historically, will not have used the name of Jesus.
‘Jesus taught that we should give our money to help the poor. He did not teach that we should ask the government to force others to “give” to our pet causes. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Governments exist solely for the administration of a nation. Jesus said ‘give to Caesar what is Caesar’s ‘ and generally disapproved of the church handling any money which was not immediate necessity.
I agree- we are meant to share our wealth.
I also believe unless we do it does not benefit us.
Religion has traditionally been one of the ‘pet causes’ of each nation, so it is good to see a separation of God and state as governments advance, so that people in power cannot manipulate faith to control people. Spiritual power is not to be misused.
‘Jesus taught that the Old Testament was accurate down to the last letter and mark. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus said it would be fulfilled, the law. As it has.
Neil said: Yes, but that wasn’t my point. Theological liberals often dismiss OT teachings but Jesus didn’t. He referenced the most controversial parts – Adam & Eve, Noah, Sodom & Gomorrah and Jonah.
‘Jesus taught that other belief systems were false and was not ashamed to expose them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus taught that idolatry was wrong, that anything other than a direct relationship with and worship of God was wrong.
Neil said: Right, but that contradicts what you said earlier. It also doesn’t disprove my point.
Even if the idol is Christ or the cross I believe it is wrong to attach superstition to anyone or anything.
‘Jesus taught that we should the Gospel to all nations and to make disciples. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
I agree. When we teach all people that there is the one shared God, how to love God above all things, and each other as we love ourself- that is the kingdom of Christ on earth.
Neil said: That is not the Gospel. When you realize you can’t keep what you described for even 10 minutes then may will lead you to the Gospel.
‘Jesus taught that we shouldn’t murder and expanded on that . . . hating like murder, your neighbor is the least likely person you’d expect it to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree and are pro-legalized abortion’
Jesus said when we think evil about someone we commit murder in our hearts….
Abortion is something a person must take up between themselves and God; until we are more clear on unified ethics in our societies I believe we will have to accept it as a fact, though in this era frankly I don’t see why women need be pregnant at all if they choose not to.
Neil said: It is a scientific fact that the unborn are human beings. 2/3 of the states have fetal homicide laws (unless the mother wants the unborn to be destroyed, in which case it is ok). Killing an innocent human being is murder. Abortion is murder. You don’t need to ask God about it, as He has already made it clear that murder is wrong. The good news is that in Jesus people can be forgiven and healed for this sin. But your philosophy withholds that message and simply says they did nothing wrong.
However many christians have strong views about the beginning of human life, and there was an ancient passage in the gnostic texts about women would no longer bear children if they didn’t have to: it’s an old fear and superstition that women must be pregnant maybe?
Remember the women in Bible times were the property of men, Jesus wasn’t happy about this and he urged a man to take one wife and to remain with her. I don’t think anyone was ever meant to be in union unless it was sanctioned by God, what is that old phrase ‘a match made in heaven’. I think it’s about the spiritual love uniting two people and God.
Jesus maybe knew little of abortion, I don’t think it wasa Jewish custom, though it was known in other cultures of the time how to make a woman lose a pregnancy.
Neil said: Jesus is God. He knows all about abortion.
Yes, Jesus did say that marriage was designed for one man and one woman.
Homosexuality he would have known of, it wasforbidden in Judaism and earlier Roman society but practiced in Greek and later Roman society. The emperor Nero ( 37-68 ) married a man as well as a woman. Much of Christ’s teaching developed in response to the increasing hedonism and arrogance in these wealthy societies I am sure.
‘Jesus taught that false teachings are dangerous and could send people to Hell. He railed against them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
I agree. Jesus said it wasn’t obvious who was first and last int he kingdom of God, but that it may not be the same who lead here now. He said many will come in his name and lead people astray, as has happened.
I don’t know what i think about that- except that an act of evil done to please or serve God seems blasphemy to me, and to turn the teachings of Jesus away from God and love and healing to fear and insecurity, religion and power- pure Satan.
Neil said: Wow, you sure are judgmental. Go back and read Matthew 7:1 ;-). Seriously, do you have any Bible verses to back up the claim that we are being Satanic? And any explanations as to why you trust those verses and not the rest of the Bible?
Seriously, Tracy, you are probably a wonderful neighbor and friend. But for you to claim to be a Christian mocks the historic definition of the word. You believe the opposite of the essentials of the faith. It mocks the cross, and it mocks the blood of the martyrs. The Unity Church is not Christian.
Your views match up with the essentials of historic Christianity as well as mine line up with Islam. Sure, there are some things in the Koran that I would agree with, but few would take me seriously if I claimed to be Muslim.
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Wow, don’t think I like my words editing much Neil; but I will respond to your comments:
‘If you think God doesn’t have wrath and won’t destroy things then you don’t understand the Bible at all. Yes, He is the epitome of love, but He has perfect justice as well.’
I think that the essence of all being is in balance- but that is not a wilful act of destruction. It’s very close to superstition to believ that God will destroy or harm you if you don’t satisfy certain criteria. And then when it doesn’t play out in reality it’s confusing to people. Bad things will always happen to good and faithfully religious people too, that’s the nature of reality,
‘Jesus is God. ‘
Jesus said ‘I am in the father and the father is in me’. We are all the children of God and part of God and all creation.
Jesus never said we were to worship him as a God or part of God though, he was quite clear that the only being to worship was this one God, which he calls Father.
‘Seriously, do you have any Bible verses to back up the claim that we are being Satanic? ‘
who says you are being Satanic? Are you commiting acts of evil to please God? And who is ‘we’? Am I addressing a church group or religious denomination?
What did Jesus say about what is done in his name?
‘This people honours me with words, but their heart is far from me. So in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrinal commandments of men.’
He goes on to say:
‘There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.’
In ancient times there was the concept of sacrifice to please God, and people did indeed commit atrocities believing that it would please and honour God. Jesus’ sacrifice was to wipe these practices out, an act of great love and SELF-sacrifice.
‘The Unity Church is not Christian.’
down the ages people have said this of many church faiths, I wonder sometimes what it is people truly fear.
‘few would take me seriously if I claimed to be Muslim.’
a Muslim friend fo mine said ‘I am going to be the best Muslim I can- which means sometimes I must move away from outdated practise of my faith’.
It’s the same with any religion Neil, as it affects the world the world values change.
Women and powerless people are no longer accepted as the property of others, hate and violence become increasingly viewed with suspicion and condemnation, and we begin to understand the processes involved in being followers of Jesus- not mockery or exclusion or superstition… but honesty, interfaith and intercultural dialogue and universal love.
As for the blood of the martys people have died for many many versions of Christian belief, you know that.
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I mean this in a serious way: Have you ever read all of the Bible? Do you skip over the parts you don’t like? It isn’t superstition that God destroys people. It is fact. You can avoid it by truly trusting in Jesus – but not your made up Jesus. This is just one of the things Jesus said: Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
We are not all children of God – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/who-are-the-children-of-god/ . You did not offer anything to refute my point that Jesus is God and that you disagree with that.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas. He claim He was “I AM.” He said He could forgive. He is the Word who is God (John 1). And on and on. Again, you are proving my point that your views are the opposite of the essentials of Christianity.
How did your friend arrive at the conclusion that the practices were outdated? If they were never in their holy book to begin with, then he really didn’t give anything up. If he claims new revelation from Allah, then he has the burden of proof to defend that.
Tracy, you are a classic Dalmatian Theologian. You think you are inspired to spot the inspired spots of the Bible, and you think God has changed spots and that you know which spots He has changed.
You make up your own god over and over and use the veneer of Christianity to make it appear authoritative.
They typically died for refusing to acknowledge other gods and refusing to say Jesus wasn’t God and the only way to salvation. Your claims to be Christian mock that.
Tracy, you are being very hypocritical. You came to this post to criticize me for pointing out the sin of homosexuality, as if that is a sinful judgment. But it is God’s word that makes it clear. Each of us makes judgments here. You judge that the behavior is not a sin, and I say that God’s word says it is.
You commit serious sins here: Putting yourself in the place of God by changing his word and declassifying the sin of homosexual behavior, then by getting in the way of the salvation of homosexuals by telling them they don’t need to repent. Those are wicked things, and I encourage you to repent.
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I think everyone needs to repent of something Neil, I agree with you there!
Well our interpretations of the bible may be somewhat different but I have a question that’s not scriptural- and not miles of typing!- do you believe in interfaith?
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Hi Tracy,
Can you define interfaith for me? I’m not sure what you mean by that.
Thanks,
Neil
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By interfaith I mean positive interactions between people of different faiths or faith denominations.
For example Interfaith of Greater Houston has several programmes for people of different faiths to serve together or educate each other or worship together.
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Hi Tracy,
Thanks for the clarification. That helps.
You might start by reading religious pluralism is intellectually bankrupt. As you can probably tell by the title, I’m not a fan of it. There is a good kind of pluralism whereby we treat people of other faiths with respect and encourage religious freedom. What I rail against is when false Christians or thoroughly confused Christians say that all these religions are valid paths to God.
I have a long track record of treating people of other faiths with gentleness and respect. At work, for example, people know I’m a Christian yet I’ve had fabulous relationships with employees who were Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, etc. I don’t force anything on them but am open to discussing religious topics. One thing I never do is imply that we could both be right. In fact, I look for opportunities to point out that at least one of us must be wrong.
Educating each other would be fine. We are supposed to go out into the world with our message (i.e., be salt and light, make disciples of all nations, etc.). Kinda hard to do that if you never interact with non-Christians.
But the Bible could not be more clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation, so we should never water that down message. It is also clear that we shouldn’t worship or partner with other religions. This passage is often used to teach that we should only marry Christians (which is true, especially in conjunction with 1 Cor. 7). But it is broader than that. We should not worship or have religious fellowship with non-believers.
Hope that helps, and thanks for asking!
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Tracy,
To amplify Niel’s reply, there are many good things that can be accomplished by people of different faiths working together. And there are a number of beliefs that different faith tradition can share. For example people of different faith traditions can agree and work together against abortion, or any number of other worthy causes. However, this doesn’t mitigate the fact that in most significant areas Christianity is in complete opposition to other faiths. So yes, it is possible and producitve ( I do it every day) to serve with people of differeing faith traditions, it does not mean that I (or others) are blind to the differences. Chuck Colson took a lot of flack for doing just what you are talking about.
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Wonderfully said, Neil.
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I have always felt interfaith was a large part of Jesus’ ministry. He would have been addressing multi-faith crowds in an occupied land.
I guess where the views expressed above differ with my views is that you say that worshipping Jesus ( as a God or part of God ) and being a certain kind of Christian are the only way to God, whereas I don’t believe Jesus ever meant following him to mean a new religion or anything other than using his beliefs, which he knew were the way to godliness.
And that’s where I’d say any other religions can be the same path to God.
What I’d like you to clarify if you will is what exactly do you believe that people have to do ( or think ) in order to be ‘a believer’?
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Right. And He would have said He was the only way. He would not have said that Hinduism, Buddhism, your New Age religion or anything else were valid paths to God.
He was 0.000% interfaith in the way you defined it. There are zero records of him preaching alongside another religion or even hinting that they were true.
You continue to miss the whole point of the Bible. Doing good deeds will not get you back to God. They are as filthy rags to him. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
You keep saying that, but you disagree with the Bible from beginning to end.
To be a believer, they need to repent of their sins and put their faith in the one true Jesus.
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Thanks for taking the time to share all this with me.
‘To be a believer, they need to repent of their sins and put their faith in the one true Jesus.’
repent, I agree, as in ‘have a change of heart and mind’; I don’t believe that I have encountered as yet ‘the one true Jesus’ in any of our religions, every single christian faith-place has some flaws and some truths as far as I have seen, also the other religions greatly represent the same values, and as I already said, I believe whatever people are calling it I believe there is only one God.
Do you have a faith denomination?
What do you think is the process, or the processes, by which people arrive at their faith beliefs?
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Tracy, I am so encouraged by your honesty and your proclamation that you don’t think you’ve ever encountered the Real Jesus or have ever put your faith in him. That is the very process by which a person is saved. First, a person comes to the very same conclusions you just did! I became a Christian at age 25. You can read about my experience if you are interested, at http://www.phenomenaltruths.wordpress.com.
I’ll be praying for you. Much love to you!
Andrea
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Thanks Andrea; I am looking at your website.
I have a very close walk with God, I don’t really see Jesus as God, or part of God though, well not more than anything in creation is; I do respect that other people do.
I guess I could be a ‘Unitarian Universalist Christian’ if I wanted to belong to another denomination, but I’ve always found myself called to serve in many places and to me it doesn’t matter too much so long as people are not offended by this.
At the local Unity Church I get to follow Jesus’ teachings and worship in a very calm peaceful setting for me, it just fits perfectly.
One of my dear friends is Mormon, I go to worship with them sometimes, and I’m a musician so I get to serve with people of many cultures and faiths ( Jewish people yesterday )
I love the beauty in each faith, the way faith often brings out the best in people- yet sometimes despair at the evil it creates too. Maybe all human things must have that balance, I don’t know.
I think at my heart Andrea I don’t believe Jesus envisaged any of these churches as his ministry, but maybe we can only reflect that in a small way, except the small number who will sacrifice themselves wholly to service and prayer.
Your website rejects catholicism, it’s hard to generalise even that word though, for the eastern orthodox church is very spiritually powerful, has retained some of the concept of ‘divine mystery’ which later churches attempt to explain away.
I personally don’t think that ritual would be part of Jesus’ church, he did command us to avoid ‘vain repetitions’ and reject criticisms of Sabbath observance.
That is the beauty actually of going to a new faith and observing a ritual for the first time, or like new because it is done differently than my own custom.
Not sure I understand ‘born again’ or ‘saved’; I think life is a process and we are spiritual beings of God whatever we believe.
We renew constantly where our hearts are full of love.
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Wow, you provide a lot of information there. Thank you for being so candid. And thank you for checking out my site. It is all about true Christianity. Teaching others the truth is my passion. It’s amazing and sad how easily we can all be led astray unless we make it a point to cling to the truth. We need to be reading the Bible prayerfully daily. But we will not understand it unless we have the Holy Spirit living within us. We have to ask for that, and ask for forgiveness, too.
I am all for seeking and questioning everything. I think that is how we find God. And, he draws us to himself by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are open to whatever the truth is, and we can be humble enough to accept what God says about us {that we are sinners in need of a Savior}, we will find Jesus and salvation. We cannot know God or walk closely with God unless we accept his Son.
Believing that Jesus is God is vitally important, for we cannot go to heaven otherwise. Did you know that the Bible says only a few people will be saved? Here are some verses on that:
~ Luke 13: 22-30 ~
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
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Andrea, your website and the things you write about are true historical christian religious interpretations, but I fear you are way off-mark with your christian ‘saved’ concept.
Luke 13 has Jesus repeating ‘except you repent, you shall all similarly be lost’. Even the tiniest act of malevolence tramples the mustard seed of faith.
The holy spirit comes to everyone, even when they don’t know it. I have seen it manifest in people who don’t believe Jesus is God, and I have seen how it isn’t apparent in all people who do.
I think religious teachings often take people away from their spiritual self, trying to be an intermediary for God isn’t what Jesus taught, he wanted us to have our own direct relationship.
That’s what I believe he meant by ‘I am the way’.
This is the narrow door- so difficult to navigate and stay on the strait path- so easy to become consumed with ourself, and how so many self-absorbed, hateful, peaceless, loveless actions can be done in the name of a man who said ‘whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.’
To love everyone we must have larger empathy than an egotistical notion to control others- that is God’s job.
I was saddened by your disparaging of other named faiths Andrea on the website, what exactly is your own faith denomination? I am sure people will have denounced that too at some time!
As you say many who believe themselves first- and here jesus alludes to the powerful and religious leaders- may well be last, through their own lack of love.
We only get a tiny piece of earthly life here, and then no further chance to undo our place in its history. That is the metaphor of being saved to me, those people who have lived their lives as Jesus commanded, and put right their wrongs, and shown peace and healing whenever they could, and stayed close to the spirit of God.
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Hi Tracy,
Thanks for your friendly responses. Sorry it took me so long to reply. It has been a busy few days.
The question is whether people believe the essentials from the Bible. The New Testament teaches roughly 100 times that Jesus is the only way to salvation, so it isn’t like that point is debatable for a Christian (or at least it shouldn’t be). It is also quite clear that Jesus is God.
I have never seen another religion present the “same views” that resemble the Christian faith. All those religions teach that you must do good deeds to win over God, but only Christianity offers grace. Christianity says that there is no way you can be reconciled to God on your own. It is only through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice on your behalf.
I hope and pray you take that step someday, because eternity is a mighty long time. You do not get to decide how God runs his universe.
I attend a Methodist church. I agree with them on the essentials but not all the non-essentials.
God can reach people many ways. Through his word mostly, but also through other people sharing that word, through dreams (I’ve heard many examples of this from Muslim countries, for example), etc.
I agree with some of your feelings but the fact is that you have created a god in your own image. You take snippets of the Bible that you agree with and use them, but you reject the parts you don’t like.
Your “metaphor of being saved” isn’t salvation. It is a system of good works doomed to fail. Oddly, Christians are sometimes accused of being self-righteous (which we may be at times), but at our core we are the ones saying that our righteousness is not enough. We need Jesus’ righteousness. Your religion and others teach that we can be righteous enough on our own.
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I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. The context is people believing that those who died in accidents were getting punished from God. Jesus pointed out that repenting and believing was the key. We are all sinners. Just because a building collapsed on someone else instead of you doesn’t mean God likes you better or that you don’t need Jesus.
The context of the NT shows that He meant that repenting and believing in him is the only path to salvation – http://www.4simpsons.com/Jesus%20is%20the%20way.htm
I don’t follow your reasoning. Andrea can speak for herself, but she is extremely gracious on her site. I just see her pointing out the obvious: That if Mormonism is true then Christianity is not, and vice verse. Then she explains why Christianity is true. What is wrong with that? We know that many people denounce Christianity, such as yourself, and we expect it.
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I understand, life is hectic. On the gulf coast we are just watching to see where the storm will land.
I was raised Primitive Methodist in England, that’s where a lot of my ideas first came from about equality and respect. Everything in my early religious life radiated out from the Sermon on the Mount, and we were taught that if anything wasn’t love it was something we needed to work on.
We were also very accepting that a faith might take a whole lifetime to develop, or that someone may never totally accept a religion, but the important thing was our personal relationship with God.
Such a good grounding, it’s always stayed with me, very humble simple working people. It was the poor people’s methodism, some of the evangelism was frowned upon by the Wesleys, the eccentric style of American preacher Lorenzo Dow.
Mormonism is part true just as other christianities are part true. None of them seem to make complete sense to me!
I think people should always study and pray and follow their heart- and stay as close to Jesus’ teachings as possible.
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Oh my, you are near the hurricane? I will be praying for your safety….
I am not Methodist. Many Methodist churches are quite liberal, which means they step outside the bounds of what is true and acceptable in biblical Christianity. Am I right, Neil? {Neil, I know you have your head on straight!}
I go to a non-denominational church but I do agree with the Southern Baptists on all issues, because they follow the Bible to the letter as far as what their beliefs are. I am in total agreement with them.
While tolerance and equality sound lovely, and they work very well when talking about the worth of people, they do not work so well when you are comparing belief systems. This is because Satan has designed false religions to be both deceptive and alluring. It is true false religions contain a lot of truth. “The better to deceive you with, my dear….”
Shall we give him and the demons a fair chance? Shall we embrace wrong beliefs? No.
We need to be aware of the existence of deception and of the spiritual warfare which is going on constantly all around us. Lives and eternal destinies are at stake, and Satan wants to take as many people with him as he can, into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20: says,
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So, while it sounds nice to embrace all beliefs and all people and respect it all, we need to be as concerned as Jesus was about the souls of men, and confront them with uncomfortable truths. It may take a lifetime to develop one’s faith, but it would be wisest to investigate it all now, with a mind determined to embrace the truth, whatever it is! =)
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Hi Andrea – yes, I’m currently at a Methodist church where we have three orthodox pastors. The Texas Conference of the UMC is fairly sound Biblically. Go up North or to the West and there is no telling.
Lots of good things going on in Africa and such, though.
You are absolutely right that many Methodist churches are quite liberal. I would say aposate, even. Some of the things done by national leaders make me want to leave, but we have a lot of good things going on in our church. I addressed some of that here – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/youre-a-what-a-methodist/
“This is because Satan has designed false religions to be both deceptive and alluring.”
Yes. Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
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I don’t believe in Satan or demons or angels except as metaphorical representations of a metaphysical world I don’t believe exists in that way.
But it seems to me that you worry too much both of you about all the people and things you cannot control, calling them ‘liberal’ and ‘evil’ and ‘false religions’ and such. I’ve been to pretty much all these denominations in the US South and many other religions here too, and I’ve seen good things, bad things and occasionally some downright heroism or outright evil things.
Our churches reflect us. That’s why Jesus said ‘the eye is the light of the body’. Some people are always looking for the bad in others, but there’s bad in all of us somewhere, and in all but a few damaged souls there is much good.
The spiritual warfare goes on within each of us. We demonstrate our faith and trust of God by our behaviour.
I was a little shocked by the harshness and racism and sexism when I first came to the Southern US but found it is only possible to demonstrate non-prejudice in my own life and witness quietly; anything else seemed to polarise people and bring about more unkindness.
Many people are fanatical about having their own worldview even though clearly there are many ways to view things and many ways to live.
I understand fully why Jesus hung out with the social outcasts and ‘sinners’: it was so that he could love perfectly. I believe he thought if he showed us by example we would get it.
It’s not for another person’s benefit, it’s our own spiritual development depends on our ability to set ourselves aside: ‘if you love only them that love you, what good does it do you?’
The disciples ask Jesus if they should stop others from healing in his name, he says to let them be: ‘he that is not against us is for us’.
When we encourage others to seek God and use the spiritual power sometimes I think we are afraid to trust where it will go, but that’s what God does…
Religion has traditionally been used as superstitious control, but that’s not to me true faith, because there is an abundance of spiritual wealth for everyone, and nothing to fear.
‘The Texas Conference of the UMC is fairly sound Biblically. Go up North or to the West and there is no telling.’
I think a lot of the TX churches are out of step with the general consensus rather than the other way around, especially on the issue of homosexuality which started the discussion!
‘a mind determined to embrace the truth, whatever it is! =) ‘
yes, the open mind, what Christ called ‘repent’ or a changed heart. Love is key- when we have any level of acceptance, affection or respect for someone we open our minds and hearts to them even where we don’t accept or agree with them entirely.
And that’s the danger with extremism- we only give someone else the option of ‘do exactly what I want you to or be damned!’ and people don’t ever experience that as love or concern, if indeed it is.
Andrea, I am wondering who taught you to believe literally all this stuff about the release of Satan? It does not sound like a healthy church system. The book of the revelation should never be in the scriptures, it has been used to torment and frighten people for too long.
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I first became convinced of Satan’s existence when, as a non-believer, I decided to test what is true by praying to Satan each night when I was 6 years old. i turned my little hands upside down and prayed to Satan the best I knew how. It felt wrong, but I did it anyway.
God responded by giving me nightmares. I have not had anything so scary happen to me since. Each night I would have dreams in which I could see nothing but darkness. I could hear voices but I could not understand what they were saying to me. The voices were scary, loud and deep. Unintelligible and frightening. The voices would get louder and louder until I woke up, terrified. I believe these were actual demons.
The Bible only served to deepen my belief in Satan and demons, and Revelation is my favorite book of the Bible. The entire Bible is true and we need not fear what Revelation declares unless, of course, we reject God, Jesus, and the Truth.
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As a Bible-believing Christian, I hold the same view that Jesus did: Satan is real, and he is the father of lies, among many things – including the lie that he doesn’t exist.
I’m not worried about things I can’t control. I know who wins in the end. I just want to share the truth of Jesus with them.
Once again, you quote the parts of Jesus you like, but not always in context of what He really meant. The passage about the eyes is about money and greed (Matthew 6:19-24) and has nothing to do with whether you look for good and bad in others.
But if Satan isn’t real, what spiritual warfare are you referring to?
The whole UMC position is accurate with respect to the Bible and homosexual behavior. It is the theologically liberal / non-Bible believing areas that want to change it. You pick and choose what verses you like in the Bible, but the case for homosexual behavior being a sin is overwhelming:
100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
But who says your views aren’t extreme? As best I can tell, you think everyone is going to Heaven (please correct me if I’m wrong, as I don’t want to mischaracterize your position). That is a rather extreme view. But what if you are wrong? People are on their way to an eternity in Hell and you are telling them they are doing fine.
On what basis do you decide what goes in the Bible and what doesn’t? If you think the Bible is wrong, why couldn’t it be that Revelation belongs there and “love your enemy” doesn’t?
Also, Satan is mentioned throughout the Bible and not just in Revelation. His mention there is actually good news: He loses, quickly and decisively.
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‘God responded by giving me nightmares.’
our imaginations are very powerful, you gave yourself nightmares Andrea. I wonder what made you want to think about Satan or even where you’d heard of the concept at that young age. You poor thing, you must have been terrified.
What did your parents think of your experiment?
Demons were the way of describing mental illness and disability in unenlightened times, the concept has resulted in a great deal of persecution down the ages as superstitious people blamed anything bad which happened on someone ‘possessed by evil’. In one of God’s ironies, it is a person with such an attitude or who acts cruelly who is possessed by evil. But even today there are places where people are persecuted for being the wrong colour or some other attribute which is wrongly believed to attract the wrath of God…like albino children in some african countries, or the conservative response to AIDS in the US.
‘On what basis do you decide what goes in the Bible and what doesn’t? If you think the Bible is wrong, why couldn’t it be that Revelation belongs there and “love your enemy” doesn’t?’
good question Neil. I think personally for me it’s very very simple- if it ain’t good it ain’t God!
The Bible- collection of Jewish and Greek texts- was pulled together somewhat hastily in the 4 th century to support the end of the Roman emire, and has evolved since then to the interpretations and translations we have today. The Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest of these editions, dating to 330-350, but it’s not intact.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Old Testament records, the youngest dates to AD 68.
The oldest written records we have of the New testament are some of the Nag Hammadi coptic texts dating to the 3 rd century which were recovered at the end of World War 2.
To look at the language constructs it’s easy to understand how people came up with their various interpretations for the New Testament. Jesus was hard to understand sometimes. The Greek concepts of their religion creep in too, with as you say Hades for the grave and ouranos ( Uranus ) for heaven.
Jesus’ language was aramaic, a kind of Egyptian.
By the time the Bible became widely available to Europeans Jesus was no longer represented as black, arabic, or Jewish though, in the Catholic faith. Once people began to have access to Bibles to study for themselves ( post 16 th century ) more protestant faiths emerged.
The Eastern Orthodox Church was of course active from the same time, but grew from a different culture, they just released a new Orthodox Study Bible translation, I haven’t read it yet, but I will!
It has only been by studying all these texts and attending Temple I finally understood Jesus’ teachings. It’s taken years.
I believe all is meant to inspire all these different groups and interpretations, and that is how it survived too, someone else would always come along and it touch them in a new way.
Where we get it wrong is when we go against each other and say ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’. It’s not like that. In fact, in demonstrating how to love anyway, we demonstrate the teachings.
Jesus said his parables were so people might not understand but hear the wisdom anyway. They are stories, metaphors and myths and examples.
If I think of his brown eyes looking my way at whatever it is I am about to do or say that tends to correct me, by this point. I’m mostly at peace with all people, sometimes I feel sad when I see how much waste goes into hating each other, but I rarely feel bad about anyone now, they are where they’re at developmentally I guess, and I can’t control that. I might influence it though, if I am kind- I loved when all the young people used to wear those bracelets ‘WWJD?’ !
Matthew 6 is beautiful, forgive people their trespasses. Interesting word that, it does feel like someone trespassed upon our soul when they go against us or cause us grief. It’s from the Greek paraptoma, to fall against someone, for Jews like Jesus there were codes of personal behaviour about who to touch in what circumstances.
Jesus’ healing and reaching out to people would have gone against The Law, another reason he was criticised; he said it didn’t matter. He could heal on the Sabbath etc if it was commanded from God.
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Tracy,
I would suggest that before you go any further you should do some additional research on the historicity of the Biblical texts. I would suggest you take a look at any of a number of works that examine the evidence.
Dr’s Greg Boyd and Paul Eddy deal with this is their current book.
Lee Strobel covers this territory quite well
Paul Littles books (Know What/Why you believe) are excellent.
Francis Scheaffer- The God Who is There, He Is Not Silent
Nancy Pearcy- Total Truth
I’m sure that with a little effort you will be able to find others.
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Hi Craig, thank you. Yes, there are a lot of these books, I think many of them get evangelism a bad name, frankly!
lee Strobel’s book went from being ‘The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus’ to ‘The Case for the Real Jesus: A Journalist Investigates Current Attacks on the Identity of Christ’ a couple of reprints later!
The only thing I like about Greg Boyd and Paul Eddy book is the first three words of the title!
I think naturalism and scientific method- which the book trashes- actually have very little to do with the spiritual dimensions of the argument for apologetics.
People misunderstand Christ’s healing ministry, or the concept of ‘the healing touch’; partially because of all the charlatans down the ages who have made believe you can manipulate spiritual healing.
But just because people would like to believe the Bible was dropped intact from an angel does not make it so- the Bible has always been a tool for politics and personal power, and what gets left out is culturally significant.
We see this in the evolution of western christianity where by the renaissance Jesus is a blonde-haired blue-eyed european.
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Tracy, please don’t take this too personally, but I find it very puzzling for you to make such a comment.
You have demonstrated out of context interpretations of Jesus’ teachings multiple times on this thread, and perhaps more importantly you just got through explaining why you find the New Testament unreliable. I think your reasoning is unfounded on the latter claim, but if you think it is true then why do you consider his teachings at all?
Is it fair to say that you think Jesus sort-of said some of the things attributed to him, but not all of them, and that you don’t think He was God in flesh? That’s the impression I have thus far. Christians don’t just listen to his sayings because we like them, but because of who He is and the authority his words carry.
Yes, God is good, but how can you be sure that what is in the Bible isn’t ultimately good? Is it bad for God to punish evil? What kind of a just judge would let such rebellion and harm go unpunished?
Re. trespassing – I think it is important to note that when we make God in our own image and put ourselves in his place that we are trespassing. The word has connotations of being a misdemeanor in our lives, but with respect to God it is the ultimate crime.
And we can see from them that the Bible has not been changed, just like with the NT. We know what the originals said.
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Tracy,
I’m not sure from your answer if you have actually read the books or just the back covers. The Boyd/ Eddy book takes an in depth look at the areas you mentioned without getting past applying the normal tests scholars apply to texts of antiquity. Even if (in your opinion) the book trashes naturalism and the scientific method, the book certainly doesn’t stand or fall on that one point.
As far as Strobel, had you actually read the books you would know that each of his books is an attempt to interview experts in various fields to address different topics that caused him trouble as an atheist. The most recent book (Real Jesus) is not simply an update of the Case for Christ, but a new book aimed at more recent “attacks” on Jesus.
As to the rest of your comment, since it didn’t address anything I actually said, or believe, I think I’ll leave it alone.
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‘it didn’t address anything I actually said’
I thought it did.
I find the Boyd Eddy book very difficult to read because of it’s pseudo-intellectual posturing. It is very convincing, I’ll agree, but I don’t like people who try to convince me, I can make up my own mind if they present their information. I think I have their book on evangelical theology, maybe I’ll take another look at that. I think I put it down because it was predictable…
I don’t think that what modern people are searching for in re-interpreting Jesus is at all an attack on Jesus- it’s in my case an attempt to find Jesus, to live a life that represent his values and path to God.
I don’t see that hating homosexuals or believing in a place of eternal torment are any part of his ministry. I am only interested in becoming a person closer to God and more capable of fulfilling God’s ‘purpose’ for me. And Jesus said that was love.
I can see why some of the loveless churches might experience that as attacks on their reliance on a worldview of suspicion and superstition, but my point was it’s a manipulation of people’s knee-jerk responses to say anyone who challenges the status quo is ‘attacking Jesus’, like in politics where anyone who disagrees gets called ‘unpatriotic’…
Is Jesus God? We are all part of God. According to John’s gospel Jesus said ‘I am in the father and the father is in me’. That’s the same for everyone- that is our experience of God, though I don’t think I could describe it any more clearly than that. I don’t hear voices or have anything more than a clarity of what i should do next after I pray.
Why would I take anything personally? Even if it was meant so I am certain of my relationship with God and my theological views; and certain that yours are different yet equally valid.
Jesus had a comment about being offended:
‘skandalizo ean me skandalizo’
let no one give or take offence by me.
Life’s not as clear-cut as people want it to be, people aren’t good or evil, right or wrong, but a mix of these things.
As Jesus said ‘only God is good’.
I don’t think it’s a case of ‘win or lose’ either, why can’t it be a discussion not an argument, and concern not condemnation?
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Tracy, the “hating homosexuals” line is a phony argument. No one here has said they hate them or that Jesus said to hate them. That is just an unjustified personal attack on your part. Sadly, that is the typical theologically liberal mantra: Homosexual behavior is no longer a sin, but that it is a sin to label it as a sin. You are trespassing on God’s territory and de-classifying sins.
Jesus is the one who made many claims about Hell, so it is perfectly logical to associate that as part of his ministry. Just because you don’t like the concept doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Yes, and Jesus also said He was God.
How can that be? If Christians claim that Jesus is God, the original writings of the Bible are the word of God and true and authoritative, that Jesus is the only way of salvation, that Islam, Hinduism, etc. are false belief systems, that God said marriage is for one man and one woman and that homosexual behavior is a sin, etc., then how you you claim the opposite and still insist that both are views are equally valid?
Yes, He is God. No, we are not all part of God. That is a New Age / Hindu belief and not supported by Jesus or the Bible.
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No I don’t think I agree with any of this, but thanks for sharing it Neil.
I think you must have agreed with some of what I said originally as your editing of the original article shows- and it certainly reads as a more thoughtful appraisal of the movie and not a mere attack on homosexuality which was what prompted me to examine the topic.
There’s a famous poem by Niemöller a WW2 theologian which translates:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out…
He bitterly regretted supporting the Nazi party, which seemed so positive and right at first, the people were so sure of themselves.
For me, I will always follow Jesus first, it’s my path, my religious calling and my culture, but I have learned a lot from all the other people’s interpretations of christianity also the other religions. If I were called to be a different faith I would be that faith. All faiths are part of God.
It’s all part of a whole creation.
‘How can that be?’
( that different views are equally valid )
because one person’s spiritual life and prayer and relationship with the divine is equal to another’s.
Just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean we should do anything bad in response.
We can only control our own behaviour, and only ensure our own spiritual purity and development.
It is the open receptive mind which can be moved to God’s will, and the person who chooses to live in love and sharing and peace who follows Jesus’ teachings.
The christian religions have not behaved well on the whole through history because the people became obsessed with controlling others and manipulating the spiritual life.
Many of the liberal vs conservative arguments which pass around today do not reflect God or Christ or do any good for the people spreading or debating them.
They are like the national socialist party of WW2 Germany- it doesn’t matter how important it seems, or how fanatical people get, or whether some of the facts might be a valid argument- the actions they lead to are still unconscionable and ungodly.
Mutual respect means treating someone properly whether or not you agree with their views or values, agape love is loving anyway, and the goal of the christian life to my way of thinking. God IS love.
Jesus tried to show us all the things which stand in our way-
‘there’s not enough for everyone’, our fears and insecurities, our insistence to be right at any cost…
I think it’s time for me to bow out of the discussion now, I have nothing further to add, I shall certainly read and write more about all this in future, for now love and God Bless and thank you to everyone who has replied to me.
~Tracy
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My little guy wants the computer. But I did want to answer some questionw Tracy asked of me:
What did my parents think of my experiment about praying to the devil?
They never knew about it. Each time the nightmares occured, I went into their bedroom and told them I had a really bad dream. “Think of flowers and of walking back to the lake,” my mom said. I never explained the details to her. She died six years ago and she accepted Christ the day before she died.
I ddi tell her about the time, in third grade, when she went to the grocery store and left me and my little brother and my best friend alone in the house. We prayed we would see a ghost. To this day, although we had not discussed this incident for about 25 years, each person present {me, Kent, and Kelly} recalls that we did see what appeared to be my mom walk into the back door. She was carrying a grocery sack with bread sticking out of it. She was wearing one of her red bandanas on her head. And when I said, “Hi, Mom,” and walked towards her, she disappeared.
Whether you believe it or not does not make it true or not. Truth remains truth no matter what you believe. Better to believe the Bible now, and better to believe in Satan and demons now, rather than be shocked and dismayed when it is too late.
I believe what we saw was a demon pretending to be my mom.
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Tracy,
Those comments are as reprehensible as they are illogical.
You continue to put forth the fallacy that we can all be right in our spiritual views even when they directly contradict each other. Five year olds understand the law of non-contradiction better than that.
And your multiple comparisons of orthodox Christians to Nazis show that you don’t really think we are right. So how about being more intellectually honest and defending your views? I find it lazy for you to make claims and then run away from defending them.
Saying someone is like a Nazi for agreeing with the Bible is ridiculous.
You criticize people for being sure of themselves, when you are obviously quite fixed in your views.
You misquote Jesus and say we should never judge, all the while making judgments yourself.
You put yourself in the place of God and declassify homosexual behavior as a sin, then you say the real sin is to quote the Bible. Sure.
By your own words you don’t believe we have accurate records of what Jesus said. You then pick and choose only the quotes by him that you like. And then you consistently misinterpret those passages. And you don’t believe that He is God. You disagree with all important doctrines about him, so I hope that you are honest and do not present yourself to others as a follower of him.
I hope you keep reading. You are welcome to comment again, but only if you avoid ridiculous, passive-aggressive personal attacks that compare Bible-believing Christians to Nazis.
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what do i have to do to get banned?
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Fortunately (?!) for you, childhood friends with thick skin have some sort of inexplicable blogging immunity. That’s not a challenge to go even more unhinged, btw.
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Andrea, thanks for sharing that. Praise God that you’ll see your mother again!
Messing with the occult is not a wise move. I’m not sure exactly how the “rules” work but there are lines you do not want cross or even get close to. One friend started to mess with it and got a clear message not to go farther.
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Tracy,
After reading your response, I’m still not sure if actually read the Jesus myth book, or some other book be Dr’s Boyd and Eddy. It sounds like you either haven’t read them or can’t get past your preconecptions. I;m not sure why you would criticize two college professors for being “pseudo intellectual”. Again, had you read the book ,you would find that they take a scholarly look at the evidence for and against the “mythical Jesus” in well researched and footnoted book. There are actually two versions of the book, one aimed at a more “scholarly” audience and one aimed at a more “popular” audience. Again, they lay out the resulta of their research and one can agree or disagree with their conclusion. You are correct in saying that the research is certainly pursuasive.
Having followed your detour, I would like to get back to the point. You are making assertions that very few in the christian communioty would agree with. You dismiss those who have dealt with your objections without actually having read or rebutted them. Neil has addressed what can only be described as your random theology. So I’m not going to pile on. I’d be happy for a simple answer. Have you actually read the work you so casually dismiss or not?
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Yes, I would have to agree with you. Delving into the occult is very dangerous and frightening. I was into it mostly in first and third grade. {I skipped the second grade in school.}
My aunt {8 years older than I} loved the Ouija Board and got me into playing it with her. “I’m not moving it {the ivory-colored hand-held game piece},” she would say.
When I saw “the ghost of my mom” she was not dead. Isn’t that weird? It could have only been a demon. Thanks for the happy words that I will see her again. I know that to be true. =) I was praying very earnestly for her salvation. I got to see her on the day she died, the day before, and 8 days before that. I knew she was very sick and not doing well when I left the family reuinion we had 8 days before her death. Then I flew back home, only to be called back by my aunt a few days later. I was so grateful to make it in time. I had a very bad pulled muscle in my back and needed a wheelchair that day. I got to the airport only 20 minutes before the flight was to take off, and I just prayed and asked an attendant there, “Please, can you help me? My mom is dying and I have 20 minutes before my plane leaves.” i had 3 kids in tow, and one was 11 months at the time. But God was good, and I made it!
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Neil, have you actually seen the film?
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Hi Sarah,
Please read the comment thread for that topic.
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