Problems with pro-gay theology – 5 of 5 – summary

warning.gifThis is the last post in the series.  Please consider reading parts 1-4 as well.

Part 1    Part 2    Part 3    Part 4   

Pro-gay theological principles in action

In the first parts of the series, I addressed the three commons ways pro-gay theologians make errors, namely by believing that: 

  1. The Bible is either not the Word of God, or most parts of it aren’t.  
  2. The Bible is the Word of God, but it doesn’t really say homosexual behavior is wrong.  
  3. The Bible is the Word of God and does clearly and emphatically condemn gay behavior as sinful.  However, the Holy Spirit has given additional revelations such that this behavior is now acceptable and the “new” sin is saying that homosexual behavior is sinful.  

In this final installment I am taking the pro-gay theological reasoning out for a test drive, so to speak, to see how it applies to other passages.  After all, if their principles are sound they should work in other situations as well. 

We’ve addressed Leviticus 18:22 (Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.) and some of the improper interpretations of it here and here. But I wondered how their reasoning would apply to a verse in the same passage, such as Leviticus 18:8 – Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.  After all, the context of Leviticus 18 is abundantly clear because it starts and ends with the same admonitions: Don’t be like the pagan Canaanites and do the detestable things listed in the middle of the text, or you will be vomited out of the land like they were.

You can use any verse from Leviticus 18 to make the same points (bestiality, child sacrifice, etc.).  I chose this one because it happened to be addressed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5.  Especially note how Paul chides them for being proud  and boastful about this man’s behavior.  Read it once, then read it again and replace the descriptions of incest with homosexual behavior.  That is how I view the pro-gay theology community (especially the heterosexuals): Proud and boastful for ignoring God’s Word.

1 Corinthians 5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Now let’s apply the various lines of pro-gay theological reasoning to Leviticus 18:8 and 1 Corinthians 5 and see how well they work.  I realize that not all pro-gay theologians hold all these views.  I tried to convey their reasoning as accurately as possible.  Using their logic, we could conclude that:   

  • Jesus didn’t specifically say not to have sexual relations with your father’s wife, so it couldn’t have been very important and probably wasn’t even a sin (the argument from silence).  We should err on the side of saying it isn’t a sin.  We ignore the fact that Jesus, as God, authored the Old Testament and that He fully supported it.
  • The man was born that way (i.e., with the desire to have sex with females).  It was his natural desire and function.
  • He and his father’s wife love each other!  Who are you to say that is wrong?  Gene Robinson, a Bishop in the Episcopal church, left his wife and kids so he could be with his gay lover.  Pro-gay theologians usually affirm and applaud this behavior.  Living up to marriage commitments made before God isn’t nearly as important as indulging your sexual preferences.
  • How do you know he and his father’s wife didn’t pray about it?  Maybe God gave them a personal revelation permitting them to have sex and/or get married.  That would make it acceptable.
  • Leviticus 18:8 was a ceremonial law.  It was only for the Jews.  It obviously doesn’t apply to Gentiles.
  • The Bible never actually uses the word incest.
  • There are only a few verses saying not to have sexual relations with your father’s wife (probably less than there are describing homosexual behavior as sinful).  Therefore, how can we be sure about it?  And they are kinda obscure as well.
  • The man or the father’s wife was a temple prostitute or this was part of some pagan temple worship, and that is what made it wrong (even though the text doesn’t even hint at that).
  • Paul was an ignorant prude.  He didn’t understand sexual behavior or have the advantage of all the knowledge we do.  (This assumes that the Holy Spirit wasn’t inspiring his writings, of course).
  • You are just using the “yuck” factor and saying “Eeewww” because a man having sex with his father’s wife seems gross to you.  There is really nothing wrong with it, though – you were just made differently.
  • Judge not, lest ye be judged.  Paul must be sinning here because he is clearly making moral judgments.  (Please ignore the fact that I’m judging Paul for judging and that I’ve taken Matthew 7:1-5 out of context).
  • You are just an incest-o-phobe.  You need therapy for your irrational hatred.  In fact, speech like that should be prohibited because it will incite violence against those who practice incest.
  • You just don’t love the man and his father’s wife!  If you did, you’d want them to be happy.  Hater!  Hate speech!
  • Other parts of the Bible portray God acting in ways that don’t appear to be in line with his moral laws, so they obviously aren’t really from him.  Therefore, Leviticus 18:8 may not be his Word either.  When in doubt, we should ignore Scripture, because God’s revelation to my heart trumps anything in the Bible.
  • Some parts of the Bible aren’t clear to us – even though this part is – so we can ignore it.

If that sounds like an unsound line of reasoning that’s because it is an unsound line of reasoning.  These principles don’t work on the passages they are designed to dismiss, and they completely self-destruct when applied to other passages.  Pro-gay theology is flawed, sinful and destructive and should be abandoned by any Christians who hold those views.   

Once again, remember that:

  • 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
  • 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
  • 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
  • 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
  • Remember, if homosexual behavior is a sin – and I believe the Bible clearly identifies it as such – then affirming and encouraging that behavior is also a sin and providing the orthodox Biblical view is the loving thing to do.  God is perfectly holy, but He is also perfectly gracious and merciful and will forgive those who repent and believe in Jesus.  Hear the Good News:  

    Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    40 thoughts on “Problems with pro-gay theology – 5 of 5 – summary”

    1. Cmon Neil, you know that a man making it with his father’s wife was just some sort of pagan temple worship :>).

      Sarcasm aside, thanks for what may be one of the best overall analysis & discussion I’ve read on the issue in a long time. Keep up the excellent work.

      God Bless,

      WOZ

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    2. Neil,

      Your posts on this topic are truly excellent! God bless you for boldly confronting this volatile issue. It seems to be a topic that a lot of Christians shy away from. I’m not sure if it is out of fear of being labeled a “bigot” or “homophobic” or any other negative adjective they could think of to hurl at us.

      I’d like to share a commentary from an internet friend (who gave me permission to post it anywhere, anytime) that shares why Jesus told us that the closer we get to the end times, the cultural climate would be “as in the days of Lot.”
      Even though it was written four years ago, we can see that his conclusions are even more relevant today.

      In Christ,
      Christine

      *******

      Volume II Issue #8 AUGUST, 2003

      The Days Of Lot

      “Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” Luke 17:28-30

      While I am painfully aware that this month’s commentary is not without controversy, I have struggled long and hard with how to present it. Unfortunately, there is just no other way than to just get it out. If you are offended by it, then good. I hope that you will search the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). Now that I have your attention, let me just say that I am going to do my best to expose this darkness, but share the love and mercy of Christ as well. I am also going to use a lot of Scripture, as the Holy Spirit needs to be able to do His job through the understanding of His Word.

      The story of Abraham and Lot should be familiar to everyone, however I will refresh your memory on the details. Lot was Abraham’s nephew and they had left Ur together in search of the Promised Land. Because God had prospered them both with huge herds of cattle and flocks of sheep, the land began to be too small for their needs. At that point they agreed to separate and each find room for their herds, flocks and families. Abraham let Lot choose first and he chose the plain of Sodom to dwell in. As time would go on, it would become apparent that Lot had made a poor choice.

      The Bible does not have a lot to say about Sodom other than that it was very wicked.

      Genesis 18:20-21

      ” And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,

      21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

      We aren’t told just what this grievous sin is until the next chapter…

      Genesis 19…

      1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

      2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”
      And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”

      3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

      4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house.

      5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

      6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him,

      7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!

      8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

      9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.

      10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.

      11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

      As I said, the Bible doesn’t say much about Sodom, but what it does say is loud and clear. There are days worth of study in this passage friends.

      Why was Lot sitting at the gate? This signified his high position on the city council. Lot was tolerant of the rampant sin in the city.

      What an apt picture of our day and age friends. This is our first clue to why Jesus pointed out the days of Lot as a model for the time of His return. However the second, and most glaring, description of Sodom is that it was filled with the sin of homosexuality. The men of Sodom wanted the ‘men’ that had come to Lot’s house. In fact, they wanted them so bad that they tried to break down the door to get them, and, according to their own words, they wanted them just to have sex with them. They would not even accept the offer of Lot’s daughters. Nope. They burned in lust for the men that had come to town.

      So where does that leave us today?

      Jesus likened the days of his return unto the days of Lot. What do we know about the days of Lot other than the rampant homosexuality that marked it? Isn’t it odd that we do not know much more about it? I do not think so. In fact, I believe that it is exactly what Jesus was referring to.

      The homosexual agenda has been pushing at us for decades with a marked increase in recent years. MTV has been a big factor in pushing it on shows like The Real World and Road Rules. Numerous TV shows, plays and even music stars have been instrumental in advance the homosexual lifestyle upon the world. However, it really seems that there has been a definitive increase in recent weeks. It is as if a line has been crossed, or a dam has been breached and the flood of homosexuality has begun to fill the world. I believe that the dam that broke was the Church.

      The big news recently was the appointment of the so-called “Gay Bishop”. Deluded statements like, “Once again Jesus has turned Good Friday into Easter Sunday” (quoted by Gene Robinson on the day of his appointment), and “We have come to the conclusion as a Church that homosexuality is not wrong. It is just another of the many ways that God expresses himself through man.” (in a statement made days earlier regarding the so-called ‘Heresy Meeting’ days before the appointment by a Episcopalian Church leader).

      I do not think that many folks realize the spiritual significance of this story. This should never have even come up for discussion. This was the last frontier for the homosexual agenda friends and now it has been reached! The moral implications not withstanding, the legal implications are going to be very grave indeed. The door is wide open for the homosexual lifestyle to permeate every aspect of society now.

      You may have noticed that right on the heels of the bishop appointment were a flurry of TV shows on both cable networks and regular television (to use a phrase lightly). Many more are being advertised for the upcoming season as well. You see, that is the whole point. Now that Satan has officially sanctioned the homosexual lifestyle in the Church, what is holding back the same agenda in the world? Every church is now going to be expected, probably forced, to allow homosexuals to be placed in ministry positions. We can not only expect the flood to fill the obvious demonic controlled areas of society, but now the Church as well. Surely Jesus is coming for his Bride!

      Is there anything wrong with homosexual sex? Many today actually believe that it is fine, if homosexuals just keep it to themselves. Well, what does the Word of God have to say about it?

      Leviticus 20:13

      If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

      It seems pretty clear what God thinks about the act of gay sex. But that was Old Testament some would say…

      Romans 1 gives us an overall description of the fate of those who reject God and His salvation through Jesus Christ…

      26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

      27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

      28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.

      And later we read that homosexuals will not enter in to Heaven unless they repent of their homosexual sins and receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

      I Corinthians 6:9-11

      9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

      10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

      11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

      Again in I Timothy 1:10

      10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

      I think the Bible is pretty clear, don’t you?

      The problem isn’t with homosexuality exclusively. You can replace that sin with any from the list, it simply doesn’t matter. Sin is sin is sin! That is the key to this whole thing. However, the elusion to the days of Lot by Jesus Christ, and the delusion that is spreading in the world today are unmistakably linked to the homosexual lifestyle. Thus it is the issue that needs to be dealt with today.

      As followers of and believers in Jesus Christ we must be compassionate and seek every opportunity to extend the Gospel to all sinners. Homosexuals do not need to be reminded of their specific sins, but rather that their sins are forgiven through the blood of Jesus, should they want it and confess that Jesus is Lord.

      For those who are watching the skies and looking for Christ’s return, this impending flood is inching oh so much closer. The great rescuing of the Church is surely nigh. Keep the faith saints, and do not bend on the essentials of the faith. The degree of sin being displayed may be perceived as worse than any other, but it is still just sin. We were all guilty before we received the grace of God. Don’t forget that God dearly loves the sinner and does not have any joy in the death of the wicked. He loves the homosexual just as much as any other, so much that he sent his Son to die for them too…

      Written by Jerry Cesario

      *******
      P.S. For those who want to make the claim that “Jesus never said anything against homosexuality,” consider this:

      Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible’s writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality. Everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (being part of the Godhead) is agreeing with all that is previously written when he proclaims to the Father, “Your word is truth”.

      John 1 explains that Christ was (and is) GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible. This unequivocably solidifies the inerrancy of the Bible and supports God’s original proclamations in Scripture that homosexual behavior is sin and an abomination.

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    3. Excellent post, Neil.

      One of the things I’ve noticed about the Bible is that it is not organised sin-by-sin. You don’t start off with God’s words about murder, then about sexual immorality, then about marriage. It’s scatttered throughout and you have to piece it together. Mostly, it addresses behaviour in certain communities, condemns it, and then moves on to a different time and place.

      Arguing from silence can occasionally be a good way to go about things (for example, if there is a specifically enumerated list of items, and the item in question is not on it, it is reasonable to assume that the omission is intentional). The Bible is pretty clear that you only may have sex with your spouse, and there are limitations on whom you may take in matrimony.

      You just don’t love the man and his father’s wife! If you did, you’d want them to be happy.

      There is a fundamental difference between happiness and contentment. Morality is based upon the idea that those things which make us happy or pleased, immediately, are not those which will bring us peace in the long term. (Tammi made this point when she said that marriage, like anything worth having, requires hard work, and that work makes it the most satisfying.)

      That’s a long way of saying that the “it makes me happy” argument doesn’t even tell us whether or not it’s good for us, let alone whether or not it is moral.

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    4. Neil – Once again. Great post. Your logic is consistent, as usual, and sound.

      Something I noticed in the passage, though, brings a question to mind. It is off topic, but the meaning of the passage to me seem very clear.

      And that is this: God will judge those outside the church (as well as those inside), but those inside the church have a responsiblity to judge others in the church and specifically – that you “…not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.”

      These people, you are commanded, to cast out of your fellowship.

      Now – I’m going to make an inflammatory statement here, but it is not an attempt to make anyone here angry – just to make you think.

      Perhaps if “the fellowship” could follow that one simple rule and toss the immorals out, people like me would be more comfortable with those that remain. It’s no wonder that there is such disdain by many for the church when simple rules like this cannot be obayed – even the Pope allows child molesters to remain in official positions within the church. Heck, if it’s good for the Pope, it *must* be the official position of the church, no?

      I know that’s harsh, but oh so true. Ok – you can’t do much about the Pope, but what about your own congregations? Do you have the fortitude to follow the Lord’s teachings and toss 20%-50% of your membership out? Or are you more worried about how to maintain the church with fewer people (tithes)?

      think about it…

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    5. Neil,
      A couple of times in your post, you say “your father’s mother” when it should be “your father’s wife”.

      Neil said: Thanks, Randy! I fixed those.

      As to the sin of incest, I never looked at these verse as applying. Now, I believe incest is a sin, but I think this is broader. I believe this is talking about the woman your father is married to, who may not be your mother.

      In these days, men had many wives (and many men today have many wives over time). In fact, I think this is even broader because I believe “wife” in this sense is a term that could relate to any woman a man has slept with.

      So in today’s terms, the verse would say “Don’t have sex with anyone your father has ever had sex with.” Of course the simplest way to do this is one man, one woman, for life. In a perfect world, this is the way.

      However, we don’t live in a perfect world. Divorce happens (talking about the sin of divorce may prompt another 5 of 4 series).

      God’s grace is sufficient to cover all. Does this mean you should get a divorce and count on God’s grace? Heaven forbid! (Paul’s exact words I believe – inspired by the Holy Spirit)

      Didn’t mean to take this off on a tangent, but wanted to point out that this is bigger than incest…

      You are right. The previous verse (Lev. 18:7) mentions “mother” specifically. I used v. 8 (“father’s wife”) because that is what 1 Cor 5 did. You are right that this probably wouldn’t be the man’s mother.

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    6. Mark, that is very insightful and not inflammatory to me at all. I just heard a sermon series on church discipline by John MacArthur last week that got me thinking about this. There is a biblical model for it that isn’t easy, but it works.

      I just noted on another blog that the Catholic Church has shown that love was not their primary motive throughout the whole molestor scandal. Otherwise they would have worked swiftly to have justice done and to protect the innocent from future assaults. The Bible doesn’t teach that hiding crimes and protecting people from natural consequences is a loving thing to do.

      These abuses have happened in Protestant churches as well, so it isn’t just a Catholic thing.

      The church has been very lax on church discipline on many topics, and fixing it is sort of like putting toothpaste back in the tube: Very messy and seemingly impossible. The lack of discipline led to many false teachers assuming leadership positions, which opened the gates for more false teachers.

      I’m sure many churches are worried about the money thing, and that is wrong. The net result is that you are taking money as a payoff to hold off on the truth and church discipline. We need to exercise our faith and trust that teaching the whole Bible clearly and in love will work out for the best.

      Thanks for a clear and candid outsider’s viewpoint. I think the world would have viewed it very positively if the Catholics and others had done the right thing the first time. Their mishandling just gave people more reasons to be cynical. Who can blame them?

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    7. Hi Neil,
      Excellent work. I haven’t read through all of them, but where i have, you have made your case well. I realize that those who don’t hold to our position will never accept it, without submitting themselves to Scripture. I’ve tried working with those in the liberal camps and found it very tiring b/c they never accept the premise that God’s word is authoritative. Where they give lip service to that, they often end up redefining words to fit their agenda. This can be extremely tiring because if you can never get to the meaning of “is” then you can never truly know anything at all.

      BTW, that is one of the signs of the Christian cults, they use the same words, but with different definitions.
      Blessings

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    8. Neil:

      Great series! You beautifully deconstructed their arguments without a trace of hate, homophobia, and intolerance that is so often offered up as the basis of our position. Bless you!

      Respectfully,
      Joseph

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    9. One question…How could God create a baby (out of his own image and love) with two sex organs? Than the doctor and parents must decide a sex, and give them the right hormones to go with it?
      This is real stuff (look it up) , and definately a cause of homosexuality i believe.

      what do we do with that, and where is God in all of that?

      With peace, and simple questioning,
      Randal

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    10. One question…How could God create a baby (out of his own image and love) with two sex organs? Than the doctor and parents must decide a sex, and give them the right hormones to go with it?
      This is real stuff (look it up) , and definately a cause of homosexuality i believe.

      As for homosexuality: that is usually only if the doctors and the parents “choose” the wrong sex. When such a child is born (I believe 1 in 5000 or so are born this way), the parents and the doctors assign a gender and remove the non-conforming parts. If they guess wrong, the child will be homosexual in that she, for example, may be outwardly female, attracted to females, but should have been assigned a male gender.

      As for the God issue: heck, I’m an atheist. The only thing I can do is answer philosophically. Do you consider God to be an engineer, who designed a system to make His people, or an artist, who makes each creation by hand?

      My understanding is that Christians believe that God (and angels) do not really have sex organs themselves. Thus, any deviation from the norm has nothing to do with His image.

      Why not also ask why Downs’ babies are made? Or serial killers, who lack a conscience?

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    11. Wow! A “libertarian feminist” advocating for surgical intervention for intersexual babies!? Don’t you think these decisions should be made by the individual involvement when they are old enough to make them (i.e. puberty)?

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    12. Wow! A “libertarian feminist” advocating for surgical intervention for intersexual babies!?

      Wow! Did you miss the part where I never advocated for anything? Did someone never inform you that a dry recitation of facts does not imply endorsement or criticism?

      Did you also miss the part where any rational reading of my comment would imply criticism of the practice?

      Or are you just so obsessed with oneupmanship and “Gotcha!” that you couldn’t help leaving your brain at the door?

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    13. Randal, I know those cases occur but am not that familiar wtih the options and outcomes of various choices made. In short, we live in a fallen world and sin, disease and death are guaranteed. As Theobromophile notes, the same question could be asked for any disability.

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    14. Neil,
      Agreed we do live in a fallen world. But it seems like that is a cheap answer to the question. Im sick of hearing all this…”its becasue of sin, and thats the final answer. There are men and women who are attracted to the same sex, and know it is directly contributed to decisions that were made by others at birth… Yet, because of this (as of if society hasn’t rejected them enough already. they still are recected when they want to be a part of the Christian Faith.
      I ask..If homosexuality is fallen, and disease is fallen in the same way, than why can someone with a disability be a member at the chuch, but not the homosexual.
      Randal

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    15. Hi Randal,

      If you are just talking about the people born with two sex organs and the parents made a “wrong” decision then I’d have to think about that more. I realize the “fallen world” part seems insufficient to you but that’s all I can think of right now.

      But we are talking about an extremely limited % here. That is clearly a fraction of the GLBT population. So when you ask, “If homosexuality is fallen . . .” I’m not sure if you mean the limited example or GLBT’s in general.

      Either way, a disease / disability is different from the disease of sin that we all suffer from. As I tried to point out with this post, all the arguments used to advance pro-gay theology fall apart when applied to similar Biblical admonitions.

      We shouldn’t reject them from the Christian faith, by the way. We should offer them the same “repent and believe” message that we accepted ourselves and are told to offer the world.

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    16. Randal,

      A stab at your disability/homosexuality question:

      If a gene were found that predisposed people to rage, robbery, or pride, people with that gene would still be welcome in the Church, so long as they did not state that the genetic nature of their sinful predisposition negates the fact that such a desire is contrary to the dictates of the Bible.

      There is no point in having any code – legal or moral – which is easy to follow. If everyone could do it, you wouldn’t need it. (Cue Federalist 51.) The predisposition is akin to any other predisposition to sin. It is the job of the person to fight it, not the job of the Church to accept that sin as normal because the person was “made that way.”

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    17. The way you interpret the Bible will always be black and white. Its simply the truth of the Christian conservative. Sadly, in my opinion this simple truth has done more harm to the homosexual than good.
      I ask….What does it mean to love God and to love thy neighbor? The overall message of the gospel.

      Maybe that does mean telling them they are wrong, are a sinner, and must repent in order to enter the kingdom of God.
      or…. maybe it means showing them acceptance in the church, (membership too) even in their continual struggle with homosexuality, and in the end letting God be the judge about who got it right, and who didn’t

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    18. Good questions, Randal. Love is having someone’s long term best interests at heart and putting their needs before yours. It does mean taking the time to share the truth with them, especially if they are about to drive off a cliff (eternally speaking). That isn’t just about gays, though. You could take all issues of sexuality off the table and you’d still have 6 billion sinners in need of a Savior.

      I think it does mean to help them in their struggle. We could use more ministries to just be friends with people of the same sex – not potential sex partners, just friends. Of course I think they can worship with us provided they don’t expect us to deny what the Bible teaches. In the same way, people who are greedy/lustful/etc. are welcome provided they don’t expect us to take those verses out either.

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    19. This was a great read, Neil. Excellent work. But I came across one of theobromophile’s replies that I could not help but to answer.

      “Why not also ask why Downs’ babies are made? Or serial killers, who lack a conscience?”

      Not to insult but i wouldn’t expect an atheist to actually read the entire bible but rather only parts of it that pertain to his or her perticualr arguement. Not a sound strategy, its like making an italian combo and leaving out the meat. To get back on track ; He would have to be w/o the knowledge of the consequence of the Sin of Adam & Eve. He does not know that b/c of their transgression, God cursed mankind termendously and everday we see evidence of that. Strong mothers dieing in child birth, kids being born with terrible diseases, etc. God also mentioned that we’d till the earth and sweat for the food we eat. He seemingly is under that “Chruchianity” concept that God is an angry God who takes out his anger on innocent people. I was guilty of that concept when i was a teenager. So i dont fault him but hey its time to grow up. Now the serial killer aspect is actually quite easy to answer if you only look at it w/ an open mind. So many circumstancial effects come into to play when u consider a serial killer. Perhaps their childhood holds the answer to what they’ve matured into. On the otherhand the person could be mentally unstable like the asian boy who went on a shooting spree @ VA tech. However, you can ascertain that this is just one form of the curse placed on man. Jesus payed the price for our souls but we are left with the truth to fight the weakness in our flesh day in and day out to proove ourselves in the eyes of God. “In my flesh dwells no good thing.” Words just dont cut it. Unlike our friend, theobromophile who is only using these points to reinforce his atheistic beliefs. He could care less about these unforuntate kids. This servers as a precursor to take our life to the next level and live to a higher standard so that our descendants may find mercy and not have to bear the curses so many carry on their shoulders. The sins of the ungodly/wicked/immoral parents shall surely be met on their children. Dont any of you forget that. Live well so that your children may do so as well. Continue to pray for men and women like theobromophile that they begin to open their minds to the wisdom of God, not the wisdom of flawed men and women. God bless you all and your families.

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    20. Hi Revelation,

      Thanks for stopping by and for commenting. I think you may have misunderstood the context of Theobromophile’s comments, though. I inferred that she was just pointing to the fact that Christians believe that this is a fallen world and that the same questions could be asked of any malady. She is one of the most gracious atheists I have come across as far as respecting Christian beliefs.

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    21. Congrats… you have destroyed any trace of God accepting gayness. And I feel… at peace with it.

      You are likely one of the few GLBT (I actually called myself bi) who was converted with your anti-gay stuff.

      If you would though, I ask that you give me a link to a site that ACTUALLY SHOWS how to abstain from homosexual behavior. That’s about it.

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    22. Hi KT,

      I didn’t quite understand your comments. If you object to any of the points I’ve made, please point them out (or pick an example).

      fyi – this post was for people who claim to be Christians. In theory, they would consider the Bible to be authoritative and that would give us a foundation to determine God’s views on homosexual behavior.

      Re. abstaining, here’s a great place to start: http://www.joedallas.com/

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    23. Oh, ho ho, no. I’m NOT falling into that trap. You’ve won. I surrender, at least for the time being. But I still surrender.

      *holds up a white flag* Truce. You may have saved me from hellfire.

      What I meant was this: I had thought myself bisexual, and have advocated for pro-gay theology. Yet all of your installments have utterly dropped an atomic bomb, so to speak, on my own ideals; they were mainly formed from this site: http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm (The parts of link #6- “Homosexuality and the Bible”)

      I have no will, as of now and maybe forever, to keep up my farce. And… thanks for the link. I’ll check it out soon.

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    24. Hi KT,

      OK, now you’ve gone and broken my sarcasm detector ;-). Seriously, if you ever want to address some of the specific issues your sites bring up I’ll be glad to.

      I highly recommend this site (the author is the guy from the previous link) – http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/dallas.html

      If the page you cited takes its queues from Soulforce, then I’ve addressed much of it already – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/endless-errors-from-soulforce/ .

      Like

    25. Well I have to abstain from being like King Solomon (as far as his obvious taste for an array of women), we shouldn’t always do what comes naturally, or should I say, we can’t always say we should do something because it comes naturally…

      Like

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